Ban on the sale of wet wood

[stu64]

I work in the stove industry and have done for 25 years, educating people that burning wet or unseasoned wood is a bad idea is an uphill struggle. we now burn kiln dried logs in the shop (10% moisture or less) and have proven that we burn less wood and get more heat than burning seasoned logs (15-20% moisture). the logs are kiln dried 5 miles away in kilns powered by solar panels-lots of solar panels.

as usual in the press not all the facts are present. you will still be able to buy unseasoned wood in quantities of 3 cubic metres or more.

no one will police what you burn anyway, so its kind of irrelevent. 

So a dry log will release more co2 into the amosphere and as it burns faster you will actually burn more of it during the day than you would a wet log .-I dont agree with this ultrastu. a dry log will not release more co2 than a log of higher moisture content, and as I previously said we use less kiln dried logs than we did seasoned logs.

These measures being brought in are part of the 2022 SIA measures and have been in the pipeline for a while. the new stoves now release very few particulates, (soot basically) as particulate emission is the new demon. One british maufacturer of stoves has had to make their stoves less efficient to get them to pass the emissions test. you have to have a certain amount of air going into the stove to ensure complete combustion otherwise you get smoke and soot, but more air passing through the stove lessens efficiency. The new generation of stove won't work properly on iffy wood, but they are fantastic on properly dried wood.

I could go on and on, but won't. People will always do their own thing and that's a good thing.

[yates]

5 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

First off .how do you define wet wood .? 

It must i guess be taken as above a specific moisture content ..and as any body who knows about drying wood (i do ) it drys if allowed to air  dry slowly and un uniformly .achiving (depending on the species )and out of the rain .to around 20  % on the surface,  more deeper in .

If kiln dried (expensive process) it can be dried faster and to a lower moisture content  again depending on species .and size /thickness of the timber .

This makes it great for buring if you want it to release  all its energy quickly .if you want a slower more consant heat (most people do .) Then a low moisture content of around 10 %isnt great .for home use .

As far as testing a piece of wood for its moisture content .most testers will only read the moisture to a depth of around 20 mm a deeper probe possibly achiving 30 mm .

Compare this to a 8 inch thick log where the moisture on the surface may read 20 % after a year in a shed to the core which may be still as high as 50 % 

And you have a totally un enforceable law that misses the point .

 

Very good point you make about what is wet wood. I buy imported kiln logs from Lithuania that clearly states 20% moisture. The performance is excellent

[JohnfromUK]

6 hours ago, Scully said:

If you have your own supply then I don't see how it's enforceable. 

I heard the ban was on 'selling' it - so if you have your own supply, no problem.

[kennett]

2 hours ago, johnphilip said:

It can take upto a 100 years for a hardwood tree to grow to maturity  . A lot of trees will be cut down in that time .

That's what I'm trying to say, you don't want mature trees doing your carbon capture, they are growing slowly and absorbing slowly. You want small/young trees which are growing quickly and absorbing/storing more quickly.

[matone]

7 hours ago, islandgun said:

Mate, this is getting out of hand, The UK will be the only country in the world to ban

Solid fuel

Petrol, diesel. hybrid cars

Shooting/field sports

Meat eating

Agriculture

The rest of the world will carry on as usual..😠

Yep,this postage stamp sized (relatively) island seems determined to cripple itself at every turn while the rest of the world just carry on.We are being influenced far too greatly by head in the clouds idiots.

[bobt]

I see lots of newish houses belching smoke from the new must have logburner,

burning rubbish and wet wood, with the stove throttled back,

banning the sale of logburners to the public would be better,

if fitted by someone who knows what they are doing they work,

[hod]

1 hour ago, stu64 said:

I work in the stove industry and have done for 25 years, educating people that burning wet or unseasoned wood is a bad idea is an uphill struggle. we now burn kiln dried logs in the shop (10% moisture or less) and have proven that we burn less wood and get more heat than burning seasoned logs (15-20% moisture). the logs are kiln dried 5 miles away in kilns powered by solar panels-lots of solar panels.

as usual in the press not all the facts are present. you will still be able to buy unseasoned wood in quantities of 3 cubic metres or more.

no one will police what you burn anyway, so its kind of irrelevent. 

So a dry log will release more co2 into the amosphere and as it burns faster you will actually burn more of it during the day than you would a wet log .-I dont agree with this ultrastu. a dry log will not release more co2 than a log of higher moisture content, and as I previously said we use less kiln dried logs than we did seasoned logs.

These measures being brought in are part of the 2022 SIA measures and have been in the pipeline for a while. the new stoves now release very few particulates, (soot basically) as particulate emission is the new demon. One british maufacturer of stoves has had to make their stoves less efficient to get them to pass the emissions test. you have to have a certain amount of air going into the stove to ensure complete combustion otherwise you get smoke and soot, but more air passing through the stove lessens efficiency. The new generation of stove won't work properly on iffy wood, but they are fantastic on properly dried wood.

I could go on and on, but won't. People will always do their own thing and that's a good thing.

A very detailed reply with some key information not reported in said press release, and also a few points I’ve never heard of.

Can you explain why when I last bought a stove (3/4 years ago I think), no one would advertise prices? I had to either phone them or go into a showroom? 

Also, is it possible to see particulate emissions for existing stoves, is there a table anywhere?

Edited February 21, 2020 by hod

[bluesj]

So wood and coal are out for heating they want to stop the use of gas so you can only use the most expensive form of heating electricity, but you won't be able to use that as it will be needed to charge you're car so you can get to work in the morning 

[derbyduck]

5 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

You could always buy an old mine!

if I dig a 3ft down in my garden there's a 2ft seam of coal 😃

[islandgun]

14 minutes ago, bluesj said:

So wood and coal are out for heating they want to stop the use of gas so you can only use the most expensive form of heating electricity, but you won't be able to use that as it will be needed to charge you're car so you can get to work in the morning 

Dont worry !  there are plans to open ten new coal/wood fired power stations

[figgy]

They can't catch cold so how they're going to police this and catch and prove it is way beyond them.

Carry on as you are.

[bluesj]

8 minutes ago, figgy said:

They can't catch cold so how they're going to police this and catch and prove it is way beyond them.

Carry on as you are.

As its the sale of wet wood that is too be banned I will carry on as I am because I don't buy wood for my fire

[old man]

52 minutes ago, bluesj said:

So wood and coal are out for heating they want to stop the use of gas so you can only use the most expensive form of heating electricity, but you won't be able to use that as it will be needed to charge you're car so you can get to work in the morning 

Hence the push for smart meters to give control over the little electric left over after the cars are charged?

 

[stu64]

1 hour ago, hod said:

A very detailed reply with some key information not reported in said press release, and also a few points I’ve never heard of.

Can you explain why when I last bought a stove (3/4 years ago I think), no one would advertise prices? I had to either phone them or go into a showroom? 

Also, is it possible to see particulate emissions for existing stoves, is there a table anywhere?

Some manufacturers and importers won't let retailers publish prices online, part of their supply agreement, but I Don't know why. They have their reasons. 

It's difficult to get particulate emission data for stoves even only 3 years old as the thing to publish then was efficiency ratings, mainly because that's what the public wanted. You could ask the manufacturer direct. People were always asking me the efficiency of one stove or another and I would reply by asking the moisture content of their firewood as the tests were done using x amount of hardwood at x amount moisture content, (and you can't burn water!!) so in the real world efficiency ratings are like car makers mpg claims! 

The stoves for sale now, new generation stuff, is the first step. In 2 or 3 years the emission regs will be tightened again and those stoves will be ultra cleanburning-with dry wood. They just won't work with unseasoned wood. 

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, old man said:

Hence the push for smart meters to give control over the little electric left over after the cars are charged?

 

Well, as things are looking at the moment, IF we were to move all cars onto electricity, and all gas heating/cooking onto electricity in say 15 years ......... electrcicity will need to be rationed.  There is neither enough generating capacity, nor distribution capability to cover that load.

As a simple example, as of now (e,g winter month 2020), I use each day roughly;

11 KWhr electricity (mainly cooking and refrigeration)

90 KWhr as gas (heating and hot water, plus gas fire)

15 KWhr (equivalent) as motor fuel (based on roughly 6000 miles per year at 35 m.p.g.)

Looking at this VERY simply, if all of this was converted to being fuelled by electricity, would need 116 KWhr per day.  So my electricity consumption would go from the current 11 KWhr to 116 KWhr .......... a staggering 10x as much.

 

 

[hod]

15 minutes ago, stu64 said:

Some manufacturers and importers won't let retailers publish prices online, part of their supply agreement, but I Don't know why. They have their reasons. 

It's difficult to get particulate emission data for stoves even only 3 years old as the thing to publish then was efficiency ratings, mainly because that's what the public wanted. You could ask the manufacturer direct. People were always asking me the efficiency of one stove or another and I would reply by asking the moisture content of their firewood as the tests were done using x amount of hardwood at x amount moisture content, (and you can't burn water!!) so in the real world efficiency ratings are like car makers mpg claims! 

The stoves for sale now, new generation stuff, is the first step. In 2 or 3 years the emission regs will be tightened again and those stoves will be ultra cleanburning-with dry wood. They just won't work with unseasoned wood. 

Thanks for the detailed reply - have my suspicions the price thing is little more than a cartel. Interesting Re new stoves.  Cheers

[manthing]

Just a question. 

But when you kiln dry logs does that extract co2. 

And there's a chap runs some drying kilns on the farm, I believe they are powered by logs, co2 from that? 

[Vince Green]

51 minutes ago, manthing said:

Just a question. 

But when you kiln dry logs does that extract co2. 

And there's a chap runs some drying kilns on the farm, I believe they are powered by logs, co2 from that? 

Environmentally, the idea of kiln drying wood to burn it is plain crazy. But Hey?

[southeastpete]

A place i know cuts trees, mills or logs the trunk and boughs, then chips the branches. They burn chip in a biomass to dry logs. I’m not sure if they self supply but I’d guess so. 

Is that environmentally friendly? I guess it’s not as good as leaving the branches where they fell to rot, but aft that it’s pretty good?

personally I prefer seasoned to kiln  dried? It last a little longer and seems to burn with more control.

we are self sufficient and are building our way toward a 5 yr stack. We have a log fired Rayburn for hot water, heating and cooking, and get through a lot! Ash dieback is a double edged sword, we will lose all our ash, but there will be alot of British ash about being milked and logged, so it will naturally get seasoned (or get v cheap) as surplus waits to be sold...

[Saltings]

cutting wood warms you / hauling / splitting / stacking / burning / warms you four times before cleaning the ashes out  🤣    some areas have no choice    rural  properties   / canal boats   / off grid living   / islands etc  /  not everywhere is on gas even today     anyone who chops logs  today is chopping for the future    old school 1 year  drying per 1" of thickness  

burn at night nobody sees nobody cares        

nothing like an open fire to welcome friends     and a more homely  environment 👍 

got a rocket stove mass  space heater in the workshop  a few sticks a lot of heat virtually no ashes and no smoke or smell of fire just a very  slight heat haze from the chimney  no smoke at all neighboured cant tell   so no dramas 

[old man]

12 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Well, as things are looking at the moment, IF we were to move all cars onto electricity, and all gas heating/cooking onto electricity in say 15 years ......... electrcicity will need to be rationed.  There is neither enough generating capacity, nor distribution capability to cover that load.

As a simple example, as of now (e,g winter month 2020), I use each day roughly;

11 KWhr electricity (mainly cooking and refrigeration)

90 KWhr as gas (heating and hot water, plus gas fire)

15 KWhr (equivalent) as motor fuel (based on roughly 6000 miles per year at 35 m.p.g.)

Looking at this VERY simply, if all of this was converted to being fuelled by electricity, would need 116 KWhr per day.  So my electricity consumption would go from the current 11 KWhr to 116 KWhr .......... a staggering 10x as much.

 

 

Yes John and that just illustrates the level of intelligence needed to progress in their tiny world? How gratifying it must be for them to possess such levels of perception and intelligence whilst thinking of us as with such disdain.

Never mind the huge profits to be enjoyed by their cohorts in the provision of the useless infrastructures involved.

The lunatics really are in charge of the asylum.

[Yellow Bear]

5 minutes ago, old man said:

Yes John and that just illustrates the level of intelligence needed to progress in their tiny world? How gratifying it must be for them to possess such levels of perception and intelligence whilst thinking of us as with such disdain.

Never mind the huge profits to be enjoyed by their cohorts in the provision of the useless infrastructures involved.

The lunatics really are in charge of the asylum.

The lunatics think that this can all be supplied using renewables🤣  They made a big thing when on a windy and sunny day in summer these produced enough power that they could power down 6!!! coal fired stations.   This island would be one big solar panel with wind turbines sticking through it to get close to half the power requirement to go all electric.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Yellow Bear said:

The lunatics think that this can all be supplied using renewables

You can see here http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

where our electricity is coming from at any instant in time in real time.

[SxS]

17 hours ago, old'un said:

Think it will effect anyone selling “wet wood” couple of guys I know go around cutting trees down also wind fall trees, they cut it into logs and sell it by the truck load and its wet wood.

People selling by the truck load shouldn't be affected:

Sales of wet wood in small units (less than 2m cube) will be phased out from February 2021. Wet wood in volumes greater than 2m cube will also have to be sold with advice on how to dry it before burning 

(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51581817)

Not clear whether they really mean a 2 metre cube (4 cubic metres) or 2 cubic metres or but anyone using wood as a key part of their heating will probably have space for either (so I think it's more a case of stopping the small nets of logs that are often so wet as to be almost impossible to burn.

Won't be long before I get our house woodpile set up ready for next winter.  Moving and stacking  around 10 cubic metres is definitely a spring rather than summer job!

[old man]

1 minute ago, Yellow Bear said:

The lunatics think that this can all be supplied using renewables🤣  They made a big thing when on a windy and sunny day in summer these produced enough power that they could power down 6!!! coal fired stations.   This island would be one big solar panel with wind turbines sticking through it to get close to half the power requirement to go all electric.

Maybe the solar panels and turbines could be on top of all of the new builds on the flood plains?