Lead ban & BASC

[McSpredder]

1 hour ago, ClemFandango said:

considering the PH of stomach acid, how can vinegar have any bearing on lead absorption into the human body? 

Those authors of that paper have, throughout the past decade, been at the forefront of the campaign to have lead ammunition outlawed.   Presumably their publications must have influenced last month's announcement by our shooting organisations.   Are you implying that perhaps they are just pseudo-scientists who don't really know what they are talking about?

[Tedward]

Just research the history of the panel members of the Oxford Lead Symposium.

Tedward.

[ClemFandango]

5 hours ago, McSpredder said:

Those authors of that paper have, throughout the past decade, been at the forefront of the campaign to have lead ammunition outlawed.   Presumably their publications must have influenced last month's announcement by our shooting organisations.   Are you implying that perhaps they are just pseudo-scientists who don't really know what they are talking about

 

Considering that I am not a scientist in any way, shape or form it would be a little hypocritical of me to suggest that.  

I just did some googling and strong vinegar has a Ph of approx 2.5 while stomach acid has a Ph of 1.5-3.5 so actually very similar levels of acidity. I have to admit I thought vinegar was weaker and stomach acid was stronger. 

Maybe the difference is the length of exposure to acid and the time it takes to break the lead down? 

Edited March 14, 2020 by ClemFandango

[mick miller]

It's all getting a little complex isn't it?

It simply comes down to the two largest countryside organisations, the relationships between them and the British Game Alliance, the need to protect both a significant investment of members money, made without consultation, and the threats to the continuance of big bag large commercial shoots and the release, annually, of millions of birds in densities that are not suited to the local environments. 

To protect those interests and investments and preserve a way of life for a privileged few the decision had been made, again without any consultation, to make a declaration that the shooting community as a whole will make a voluntary transition to an inferior product (inferior as it only works in a limited capacity for a limited number of chamberings at a limited range) over the next five years. 

The choice could have been to retain lead, reduce the numbers of birds released and shot, but as the near valueless commodity of these flying targets would have no avenue to retail, due to the presence of lead in them, there would have been little justification for the continuance of this pastime for the privileged few. 

When they say preserving shooting for future generations, they are talking about their future generations, not yours. When they ignore their own scientific research which, until recently, was used to argue the opposing position, it's simply a case of fitting facts to suit an agenda.

We will never have a viable, affordable alternative to lead in many of the smaller chamberings, but that doesn't really matter to them, you don't use a 410 on a driven day or a grouse moor. My advice would be to shift these on to the unsuspecting as soon as possible. Along with, in time, your 22lr's. If your currently using a 243 for deer, flog that off too and future proof yourself with a 6.5 or larger.

Every other announcement is just fluff and bluster, don't be mugged off. I don't actually blame them, you have to follow the money I guess, I just wish there were more honesty. 

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by mick miller

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, mick miller said:

It's all getting a little complex isn't it?

It simply comes down to the two largest countryside organisations, the relationships between them and the British Game Alliance, the need to protect both a significant investment of members money, made without consultation, and the threats to the continuance of big bag large commercial shoots and the release, annually, of millions of birds in densities that are not suited to the local environments. 

To protect those interests and investments and preserve a way of life for a privileged few the decision had been made, again without any consultation, to make a declaration that the shooting community as a whole will make a voluntary transition to an inferior product (inferior as it only works in a limited capacity for a limited number of chamberings at a limited range) over the next five years. 

The choice could have been to retain lead, reduce the numbers of birds released and shot, but as the near valueless commodity of these flying targets would have no avenue to retail, due to the presence of lead in them, there would have been little justification for the continuance of this pastime for the privileged few. 

When they say preserving shooting for future generations, they are talking about their future generations, not yours. When they ignore their own scientific research which, until recently, was used to argue the opposing position, it's simply a case of fitting facts to suit an agenda.

We will never have a viable, affordable alternative to lead in many of the smaller chamberings, but that doesn't really matter to them, you don't use a 410 on a driven day or a grouse moor. My advice would be to shift these on to the unsuspecting as soon as possible. Along with, in time, your 22lr's. If your currently using a 243 for deer, flog that off too and future proof yourself with a 6.5 or larger.

Every other announcement is just fluff and bluster, don't be mugged off. I don't actually blame them, you have to follow the money I guess, I just wish there were more honesty. 

Sold down the river!

[clangerman]

5 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Sold down the river!

and all still waiting. to see this so called proof basc never lied like that will ever happen ha! 

[theshootist]

3 hours ago, mick miller said:

It's all getting a little complex isn't it?...

 

A good summary. Thank you. 

[enfieldspares]

Excellent Mick M. 

Here's what New Zealand does. 

https://fishandgame.org.nz/game-bird-hunting-in-new-zealand/hunting-regulations/non-toxic-shot-regulations/

[GingerCat]

I think that about sums it up. 

[theshootist]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

Excellent Mick M. 

Here's what New Zealand does. 

https://fishandgame.org.nz/game-bird-hunting-in-new-zealand/hunting-regulations/non-toxic-shot-regulations/

Once again the Kiwis seem very sensible.

[pete1dart]

My biggest gripe about all this, is that I am not a member of any shooting organisation, neither does any of my shot game go into a game dealers. Pigeon, pheasant, partridge and goose all come home with me and get put into my freezer for my family’s own consumption.

 

why should the big organisations think they can dictate to me what I do with my bounty? I’ll use steel if I need too bit I would much rather use lead. It doesn’t effect any one apart from me. Iv been eating game for over 30 years and haven’t had any health problems from it. 
 

I will keep using lead and plastic wads as I prefer them too and the farmers I shoot for don’t give a monkeys what I use as long as I do a job for them when vermin shooting. 
 

so basc who claim to be the voice of shooting don’t speak for me so I will carry on doing what I do.

[lancer425]

11 minutes ago, pete1dart said:

My biggest gripe about all this, is that I am not a member of any shooting organisation, neither does any of my shot game go into a game dealers. Pigeon, pheasant, partridge and goose all come home with me and get put into my freezer for my family’s own consumption.

 

why should the big organisations think they can dictate to me what I do with my bounty? I’ll use steel if I need too bit I would much rather use lead. It doesn’t effect any one apart from me. Iv been eating game for over 30 years and haven’t had any health problems from it. 
 

I will keep using lead and plastic wads as I prefer them too and the farmers I shoot for don’t give a monkeys what I use as long as I do a job for them when vermin shooting. 
 

so basc who claim to be the voice of shooting don’t speak for me so I will carry on doing what I do.

On your first point i agree with you, but unfortunately some of us are just not honourable upright law abiding citizens, so you and me ans the rest of the decent shooters of this country have the cross to bear for the crimes of other shooters.

  The BGA and buyers do not trust our *** and why should they, we as a community are repeat offenders.

  Thank everyone who ever shot a duck inland in the uk after he lead ban in 2000 for the way events are unfolding here, dont blame the orgs for giving up on a lost cause they might have stood a chance of defending, if we had every last one of us just obeyed the law.

[pete1dart]

12 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

On your first point i agree with you, but unfortunately some of us are just not honourable upright law abiding citizens, so you and me ans the rest of the decent shooters of this country have the cross to bear for the crimes of other shooters.

  The BGA and buyers do not trust our *** and why should they, we as a community are repeat offenders.

  Thank everyone who ever shot a duck inland in the uk after he lead ban in 2000 for the way events are unfolding here, dont blame the orgs for giving up on a lost cause they might have stood a chance of defending, if we had every last one of us just obeyed the law.

Us law abiding citizens should still not be tarred with the same brush. The organisations have sold me out and I’m glad I don’t put any money in their coffers to shoot grouse in august!

[andrewluke]

1 minute ago, pete1dart said:

Us law abiding citizens should still not be tarred with the same brush. The organisations have sold me out and I’m glad I don’t put any money in their coffers to shoot grouse in august!

you're the lucky one,you were shafted for free but i had to pay for it

[pete1dart]

9 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

you're the lucky one,you were shafted for free but i had to pay for it

I stopped paying basc any money when they shafted me a few years back. I would never trust them again, especially after this. But that’s another story!

[clangerman]

14 minutes ago, pete1dart said:

I stopped paying basc any money when they shafted me a few years back. I would never trust them again, especially after this. But that’s another story!

funniest part is they had millions of pounds of members money and never won so much as a bun fight 

[lancer425]

20 minutes ago, pete1dart said:

Us law abiding citizens should still not be tarred with the same brush. The organisations have sold me out and I’m glad I don’t put any money in their coffers to shoot grouse in august!

The organisations have done nothing more than make a suggestion, nobody obeyed the lead ban on Ducks, so why would they obey a voluntary suggestion. ?

And as for selling us down the river how does that work?

  If anything they might have got us five years, without this we could be looking at a muck sooner Lead ban than this.

At the end of the five years we still get to have our say as it goes to legislation.

Not one thing has changed . We have been given a suggestion , and we know of options should we chose to follow the suggestions or our organisations.

Meanwhile carry on regardless, if you do not agree with it don’t do it.IT IS THAT SIMPLE!. 

2 minutes ago, clangerman said:

funniest part is they had millions of pounds of members money and never won so much as a bun fight 

If the government decided to ban Lead shot tomorrow how exactly are BASC or any other shooting organisation going to FIGHT EXACTLY. ?

Keep hearing about this FIGHT BUN fight FIGHTING FOR OUR SPORT HOW??

They can advise suggest LOBy that is about it, they have no powers in law, they are not in government.

[andrewluke]

7 minutes ago, clangerman said:

funniest part is they had millions of pounds of members money and never won so much as a bun fight 

[greylag]

Why have they sold you out?Nothing has been band, it's just a suggestion.Lets be honest with ourselves lead is a poison,and it will be banned.I can argue with most people who are against my pastime until they throw the lead bomb at me and and I can't argue against them.We must be seen to be going in the right direction,with plastic next.

[andrewluke]

6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

The organisations have done nothing more than make a suggestion, nobody obeyed the lead ban on Ducks, so why would they obey a voluntary suggestion. ?

 

are you serious

[andrewluke]

2 minutes ago, greylag said:

Why have they sold you out?Nothing has been band, it's just a suggestion.Lets be honest with ourselves lead is a poison,and it will be banned.I can argue with most people who are against my pastime until they throw the lead bomb at me and and I can't argue against them.We must be seen to be going in the right direction,with plastic next.

why has BASC now done a U turn after all the arguments against a ban on lead,lead has always been toxic!

 

[clangerman]

13 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

The organisations have done nothing more than make a suggestion, nobody obeyed the lead ban on Ducks, so why would they obey a voluntary suggestion. ?

And as for selling us down the river how does that work?

  If anything they might have got us five years, without this we could be looking at a muck sooner Lead ban than this.

At the end of the five years we still get to have our say as it goes to legislation.

Not one thing has changed . We have been given a suggestion , and we know of options should we chose to follow the suggestions or our organisations.

Meanwhile carry on regardless, if you do not agree with it don’t do it.IT IS THAT SIMPLE!. 

If the government decided to ban Lead shot tomorrow how exactly are BASC or any other shooting organisation going to FIGHT EXACTLY. ?

Keep hearing about this FIGHT BUN fight FIGHTING FOR OUR SPORT HOW??

They can advise suggest LOBy that is about it, they have no powers in law, they are not in government.

mate your advice to wait and see is not working i’m still waiting to see this so called proof basc did not lie and it’s not appearing so we don’t even need to get into the rest of it what’s the hold up? 

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

are you serious

The ducks from shoots into game dealers year on year weree significant in their Lead content to raise concern. And yet even when warned compliance was still unacceptable. 

[rbrowning2]

15 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

  If anything they might have got us five years, without this we could be looking at a muck sooner Lead ban than this.

At the end of the five years we still get to have our say as it goes to legislation.

If the government decided to ban Lead shot tomorrow how exactly are BASC or any other shooting organisation going to FIGHT EXACTLY. ?

lancer425, you like basc are speculating on when and the scope of any lead ban, nobody yet knows when what this may or may not be.

And why would it not be handled in a similar way to the banning of certain propellants as a consequence of the REACH legislation? That took around  five years to become fully implemented. So no they may not have got us five years that may have happened anyway.

The voluntary ban may mean the shooting organisations do not even get opportunity to influence any future legal ban with the government just nodding it through knowing they are already in full agreement.

 

[greylag]

6 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

why has BASC now done a U turn after all the arguments against a ban on lead,lead has always been toxic!

 

Move with the times.I argued for lead for years but have accepted that it has had its day and as a wildfowler have taken the alternatives to heart.