dodgy dave Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 wj will say as you agree about lead being so toxit we want a ban whithin one year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southeastpete Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 I wonder if antis or vegans have infiltrated basc and are picking us apart from the inside... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgy dave Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 seems so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 Any thing that hasn't been mentioned (that I have seen) on any of the lead threads, is that in 5 years (or sooner) when lead has gone and there is no suitable alternative for small bores (20 and under), what are the kids going to learn with, those that are not of a stature to use a 12? There'll be no start them young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 46 minutes ago, Salopian said: I have just emailed BASC and asked if John Swift still works for them? It really does beggar belief the arrogance of these associations . I don't like to say this, but I to..... "I have to confess that I've always had difficulty trying to convince myself that there was not more than just the one in place." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, ilovemyheckler said: Unfortunately BASC have shown themselves to be completely arrogant. Although they claim to represent the shooting fraternity they don't ask for our opinion or consult with us. Or it seams the trade, I,e cartridge manufactures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 the solution is simple it’s your money YOU should be making the decisions as free agents representing shooters one of the worst failings is the secrecy had we known the ban was coming we could have applied common sense lacking in those that made it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 This: https://gamebore.com/uk/news/news/joint-statement-uk-cartridge-manufacturers For those and handheld devices that can't open a link here it is as a cut and paste: UK GAME CARTRIDGES Joint statement by the Directors of the UK’s leading shotgun cartridge manufacturers Statement: Friday 28th February 2020 From: Rodrigo Crespo of Eley Hawk, Paul James of Gamebore, David Bontoft of Hull Cartridge and Roger Hurley of Lyalvale Express We, the UK’s leading shotgun cartridge manufacturers, hereby address the announcement made by BASC and other organisations on Monday 24th February, stating their “wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years”. Firstly, BASC and their fellow organisations had NO consultation with the UK cartridge manufacturers prior to the announcement being made. The UK manufacturers have now discussed the matter collectively. We believe the organisations have looked at a limited amount of products and assumed that these are a viable answer to the issue at hand. Unfortunately, this is not the case. This is a major concern to us for a number of reasons, reasons we would have explained to the organisations prior to the publication of their announcement, had we been given the opportunity to do so. Europe is currently experiencing a steel shot shortage. A move from lead to steel shot for the majority of UK’s shotgun ammunition will inevitably put more pressure on the market for raw material. This would create further shortages in the short term and push up the price as the steel shot industry invests to increase capacity. The examples of overseas markets successfully transitioned to steel shot such as Denmark and the USA water-fowling sector, should not be used as proof of a solution. This is because the steel loads used in these markets in any significant volume are loaded with plastic wads. In addition to this, the US and Danish regulations allow steel cartridges to be loaded to a much higher level of performance than here in the UK, to increase the lethality of the pellet. Limitations to performance levels of steel ammunition currently allowed in the UK mean that we are already facing tougher challenges when developing an effective steel load compared to those used overseas. Couple this with the move away from plastic wads and we are even further limited on performance. We would like to see an increase in the performance levels allowed before we can begin to develop loads effective enough to produce clean, humane kills in the various types of shooting carried out in the UK. There are indeed a handful of non-lead ammunition options with biodegradable wads currently on the market however, at this stage it is simply impossible to make these commercially viable. We cannot make a complete switch over to these products within a five year period without substantial investment into the industry. BASC and its fellow organisations do not have an understanding of the manufacturing processes involved and are therefore in no position to determine the length of time required to evolve. Tungsten and Bismuth materials are very limited in their availability and significantly more costly to produce than steel. This will result in huge increases in costs, based on raw material prices, for smaller gauge shooters who cannot use steel. This may price many shooters out of the sport. Right now, we need to decide which to eliminate– lead or plastic? We cannot avoid using both. At present the only commercially available options are lead shot with fibre wads, steel with plastic wads or unaffordable premium non-lead shot. Shooters and land owners will need to consider these options and then decide which option is preferable going forward. We must be clear and educate the organisations as to what is realistic and achievable. Although the development of non-lead, non-plastic alternatives are in the early stages of development, it will be considerable time before a full range of options are available to shooters. This process is a long one that will require vast research, development and investment. Collectively, we do agree that the industry needs to evolve to become more environmentally friendly. We anticipate this happening as larger industries continue to invest in plastic alternatives which will naturally filter down to ours and other smaller industries. These major industries are in a better position to develop the alternatives, the smaller industries such as ours will then follow. It is unrealistic to expect a relatively small industry such as ours to be at the forefront of the development of such materials. Moving forward we will continue to encourage the use of steel shot where required, but at this early stage we have no alternative option but to support the use of lead with fibre wads as the solution to the issue of plastic pollution. Where non-lead shot is needed, we encourage the shooters to collect their used plastic wads where possible and dispose of them accordingly, as we know many already do so. Lastly, we are committed to investing into the alternatives. Our collective goal is to develop high performance ammunition for all shotguns and gauges using sustainable materials and therefore secure the future of shooting. We simply ask that the organisations and individual shooters understand that doing this within a five year window without significant support is IMPOSSIBLE. Published 28th February 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 https://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/about/joint-statement UK cartridge manufacturers have stated not only were they also not consulted on the BASC proposed lead ban, but if they were, they would have told them how unworkable the proposals are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 They have gone from making the biggest u turn in history to the biggest f..k up in the history of shooting all in one week that deserves some sort of award. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: They have gone from making the biggest u turn in history to the biggest f..k up in the history of shooting all in one week that deserves some sort of award. Darwin!! 😡 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgy dave Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 lets be fair the cartridge manufactures they have known this was comming twenty years ago but sat back and done nowt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 Just now, dodgy dave said: lets be fair the cartridge manufactures they have known this was comming twenty years ago but sat back and done nowt 👍Or at best glacial progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) Oh yes, it's the manufacturers fault. Not the overwhelmingly arrogance of a bunch of misinformed Henry's. Edited February 28, 2020 by mick miller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgy dave Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 but they knew it was coming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) How? The last word they had was 'no science, no change'. Dunno who would've given them that idea? Total retards. If you haven't already, stop funding these twits. Edited February 28, 2020 by mick miller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 58 minutes ago, mick miller said: Literally, no representation would be better than this. Disagree, but each to their own. 32 minutes ago, dodgy dave said: yes where are the basc lovers now, there they're keeping quiet What would you like, a statement put out on behalf of the PW committee that believes "poor-representation-still-beats-no-representation"? Or, to give it its more common name, the Judean Peoples' Front. 😁 Look, we all hoped PR disasters were an relic of the bygone-era of BASC management, but it seems not. I'm not sure precisely what happened, but I suspect one too many boozy lunches, and a planned soft-launch. Unfortunately it was leaked to Social Media, forcing them to publish early, before the cartridge manufacturers were on board. Either way, it doesn't matter, it's still only a voluntary ban. It's a testament to how rule-abiding the British are, that we are so het up about the prospect, remember, of failing to follow a voluntary guideline in 5 years' time. Imagine if the shooting orgs in, say, France proposed this? It would be met with a Gallic shrug and people would carry on as they are. Which is, incidentally, precisely what we should do, whilst the market develops alternatives. Maybe buy a box or 2 as and when the new stuff hits the market and see how it goes. We really don't need a solution in the first month. 9 minutes ago, clangerman said: the solution is simple it’s your money YOU should be making the decisions as free agents representing shooters one of the worst failings is the secrecy had we known the ban was coming we could have applied common sense lacking in those that made it You're still talking as though this is some kind of government-mandated legal ban. It really isn't. 1 minute ago, oowee said: 👍Or at best glacial progress. Exactly, maybe this isn't the stupid move it appears to be...perhaps it's some Machiavellian plot to get the cartridge manufacturers to stick their hands in their pockets and spend some money on R&D, instead of marketing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prem1234 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 Interesting reading that !! thanks for sharing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 minute ago, udderlyoffroad said: Disagree, but each to their own. What would you like, a statement put out on behalf of the PW committee that believes "poor-representation-still-beats-no-representation"? Or, to give it its more common name, the Judean Peoples' Front. 😁 Look, we all hoped PR disasters were an relic of the bygone-era of BASC management, but it seems not. I'm not sure precisely what happened, but I suspect one too many boozy lunches, and a planned soft-launch. Unfortunately it was leaked to Social Media, forcing them to publish early, before the cartridge manufacturers were on board. Either way, it doesn't matter, it's still only a voluntary ban. It's a testament to how rule-abiding the British are, that we are so het up about the prospect, remember, of failing to follow a voluntary guideline in 5 years' time. Imagine if the shooting orgs in, say, France proposed this? It would be met with a Gallic shrug and people would carry on as they are. Which is, incidentally, precisely what we should do, whilst the market develops alternatives. Maybe buy a box or 2 as and when the new stuff hits the market and see how it goes. We really don't need a solution in the first month. You're still talking as though this is some kind of government-mandated legal ban. It really isn't. Exactly, maybe this isn't the stupid move it appears to be...perhaps it's some Machiavellian plot to get the cartridge manufacturers to stick their hands in their pockets and spend some money on R&D, instead of marketing. i’m saying plastic was the no lose option we missed a golden opportunity everyone i spoke to at a function last night picked plastic quote the plastic bullet cases (cartridge) are everywhere in the countryside i can’t see the metal bits (shot) but nobody fails to see the plastic) unquote how stupid did i feel being told what i already knew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) Cannot wait for David basc or Conor basc to come back on hear and explaining this one away, always assuming they still have a job. “without significant support is IMPOSSIBLE. “ so that’s what the £2 million fighting fund is for R&D for the cartridge industry. Edited February 28, 2020 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob85 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 All it would have taken was a small circular email to the major manufacturers to say " listen lads we want to make an announcement about phasing out lead shot....You on board and want to have a little proof read of our statement first to see what yous think?" Then the manufacturers could have put a proposal together to get common ground. Would delaying the announcement for a couple of days really have been that bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 there keeping away at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 i forgot to mention a lot of people thought swapping lead for steel was some sort of trick we are trying to pull that really worried me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, clangerman said: quote the plastic bullet cases (cartridge) are everywhere in the countryside Wait, what? You mean people are finding empty cartridge cases, or plastic wads? If the former, we already have the technology to deal with that - The MK1 Eyeball, your pocket and a round of f...., er, polite reminders anyone you see not picking their empties. If you're too old/stiff to bend over and pick them up, spend a fiver on one of those magnetic pick up things. There's really no excuse for it. If the latter, that's harder. Though I will say, as a relatively new shooter, I've never even bothered with plastic wads. Always had fibre. Hit things with it ok. Just now, Rob85 said: Would delaying the announcement for a couple of days really have been that bad? Problem is, it leaked, and apparently Facebook blew up....so probably not, in the real world, but in the world of social medja it would've seemed like an ice age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hod Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 🤦♂️ They didn’t even speak to the Cartridge manufacturers before issuing that statement/decree. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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