matone Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) So just whose interests have BASC acted in ????? The manufacturers statement is damning ,how could BASC not consult them ???? Edited February 28, 2020 by matone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 You're still talking as though this is some kind of government-mandated legal ban. It really isn't. But given the shooting representative bodies announcement it could very easily become one in 5 years (or less). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 16 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said: Disagree, but each to their own. What would you like, a statement put out on behalf of the PW committee that believes "poor-representation-still-beats-no-representation"? Or, to give it its more common name, the Judean Peoples' Front. 😁 Look, we all hoped PR disasters were an relic of the bygone-era of BASC management, but it seems not. I'm not sure precisely what happened, but I suspect one too many boozy lunches, and a planned soft-launch. Unfortunately it was leaked to Social Media, forcing them to publish early, before the cartridge manufacturers were on board. Either way, it doesn't matter, it's still only a voluntary ban. It's a testament to how rule-abiding the British are, that we are so het up about the prospect, remember, of failing to follow a voluntary guideline in 5 years' time. Imagine if the shooting orgs in, say, France proposed this? It would be met with a Gallic shrug and people would carry on as they are. Which is, incidentally, precisely what we should do, whilst the market develops alternatives. Maybe buy a box or 2 as and when the new stuff hits the market and see how it goes. We really don't need a solution in the first month. You're still talking as though this is some kind of government-mandated legal ban. It really isn't. Exactly, maybe this isn't the stupid move it appears to be...perhaps it's some Machiavellian plot to get the cartridge manufacturers to stick their hands in their pockets and spend some money on R&D, instead of marketing. Are you saying that the Bashers, Haters and now the Scabs have not finally been justified in expressing the opinions that they're perfectly entitled to make in the face of the - shall/can we call them - syco's. Fairs fair. 7 minutes ago, Rob85 said: All it would have taken was a small circular email to the major manufacturers to say " listen lads we want to make an announcement about phasing out lead shot....You on board and want to have a little proof read of our statement first to see what yous think?" Then the manufacturers could have put a proposal together to get common ground. Would delaying the announcement for a couple of days really have been that bad? From what the loaders are saying, that couple of days needs to be about 5 years, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 We are where we are, so how do we sort this mess out without looking stupid? May be suggest first phase of implementation is with the very large commercial game shoots for the next couple of seasons using the eley eco cartridges and with luck by then the media and public will have forgotten it ever happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 9 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said: If the latter, that's harder. Though I will say, as a relatively new shooter, I've never even bothered with plastic wads. Always had fibre. Hit things with it ok. I think nearly all game shoots either insist on fibre, or strongly request fibre. Similarly - all game shoots I have been on have insisted on empty cases being picked up. The elephant currently in the room is that using steel is mainly/only really possible at present with plastic wads - but I understand that various either fibre type solutions and/or bio degradable plastics are in trial/development. The issue of CIP or SAMI compliance does concern me because I believe SAMI compliance allows higher pressures - which may not be good news for those of us with older guns. I will continue to watch the various developments with great interest in the hope that something with non lead shot, non plastic wad and 2 1/2" case comes along that doesn't cost a fortune. Plastic cases I can live with as I'm sure that can be recycled, and similarly - paper cases I can live with - though swelling up on very wet days was a known problem - not one I can remember having myself when I used paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 minute ago, wymberley said: Are you saying that the Bashers, Haters and now the Scabs have not finally been justified in expressing the opinions that they're perfectly entitled to make in the face of the - shall/can we call them - syco's. Fairs fair. Um, not entirely sure I understand your point. It's a forum, its purpose in life is to allow us to express opinions. Not sure I'd use such emotive language as 'scabs', though. Or 'sycos' - which I assume is short for sycophant and not sycosis. My final comment was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek response to Grant's ( @oowee ) assertion that the cartridge manufacturers appear to have spent a sum total of £1.50 on R&D recently, and many thousands on marketing, and that BASC was playing some elaborate game of 3D-chess and whilst everyone was getting all het up, finally the good folks at Hull and co, put their pipes down and got back in the inventing shed...I doubt it though. Occam and his razor spring to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papercase Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, matone said: So just whose interests have BASC acted in ????? Wider shooting community - jump before being pushed, being on the front foot all that. Nothing in the statement surprised me much - they feel hurt because BASC didn't consult them first same as a lot of members. Can't say that I get the rest of the argument though. Market force dominates regardless. If sales of steel go up - because people are choosing to buy steel then their will be a market force to the cartridge companies to make more. Otherwise we'll be in the place 20 years from now - if there isn't the demand then there will never be the investment required to make it work. If cartridge companies or any business have the choice of producing the same product they are tooled up for OR investing money/time into new products machinery ect then they will automatically stick with the status quo. Do you think the steel shot suppliers are going to say no when they ask for more shot? They may say we don't have capacity at this time - but by jove if you've got a growing market demand your going to try and fill it and quick! Get this though - if we don't hit the five year mark, so what? We'll be heading in the right direction albeit slowly on the good ship HMS PROGRESS. Some interesting reading for those that havent read. https://pheasantsforever.org/BlogLanding/Blogs/Field-Notes/The-Evolution-of-Steel.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greylag Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 Not just BASC but all the organisations.What were they thinking.?Surely the manufacturers were the first people to be consulted on the time span etc.Obviously they thought that if they pushed the manufacturers would jump in with new products asap.Well completely wrong.Yet another farce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 28 minutes ago, matone said: So just whose interests have BASC acted in ????? The manufacturers statement is damning ,how could BASC not consult them ???? Arrogance? Let's not forget, it's not just BASC it's the bloody lot of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 13 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said: Um, not entirely sure I understand your point. It's a forum, its purpose in life is to allow us to express opinions. Not sure I'd use such emotive language as 'scabs', though. Or 'sycos' - which I assume is short for sycophant and not sycosis. My final comment was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek response to Grant's ( @oowee ) assertion that the cartridge manufacturers appear to have spent a sum total of £1.50 on R&D recently, and many thousands on marketing, and that BASC was playing some elaborate game of 3D-chess and whilst everyone was getting all het up, finally the good folks at Hull and co, put their pipes down and got back in the inventing shed...I doubt it though. Occam and his razor spring to mind. if anyone wishes to call people bashers haters and scabs could you please wait until the rest of us have found a solution by talking thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 18 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: I think nearly all game shoots either insist on fibre, or strongly request fibre. Similarly - all game shoots I have been on have insisted on empty cases being picked up. The elephant currently in the room is that using steel is mainly/only really possible at present with plastic wads - but I understand that various either fibre type solutions and/or bio degradable plastics are in trial/development. The issue of CIP or SAMI compliance does concern me because I believe SAMI compliance allows higher pressures - which may not be good news for those of us with older guns. I will continue to watch the various developments with great interest in the hope that something with non lead shot, non plastic wad and 2 1/2" case comes along that doesn't cost a fortune. Plastic cases I can live with as I'm sure that can be recycled, and similarly - paper cases I can live with - though swelling up on very wet days was a known problem - not one I can remember having myself when I used paper. in the hope that something with non lead shot, non plastic wad and 2 1/2" case comes along that doesn't cost a fortune. Plastic cases I can live with as I'm sure that can be recycled, and similarly - paper cases I can live with - though swelling up on very wet days was a known problem - not one I can remember having myself when I used paper. My hope too. As for paper cases swelling, it still happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papercase Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 Frustration maybe? At a lack of willingness and investment? Just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 41 minutes ago, matone said: So just whose interests have BASC acted in ????? The manufacturers statement is damning ,how could BASC not consult them ???? Don’t Eley, who are pushing their new steel carts, pay BASC a lot for “sponsorship” ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 Interesting that Eley were the first name on the list !! When I enquired with them about getting some ecowads to homeload with, they said that they still had a lot more to learn … which suggests to me that they wouldn't be tough enough to withstand some of the pressures we homeload steel to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 "A goal without a plan is just a wish" ….. I don't mind ambition, but I would have expected some intelligent background work on the development of biodegradable materials with manufacturers that would facilitate the development of suitable loads for multiple calibres/chamber sizes. As I posted earlier … the orgs must be prepared to fight this turning into legislation if the technology is not delivering in 3 to 4 years time. BASC .. please take note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 22 hours ago, andrewluke said: have steel cartridges improved that much and lead got more toxic in the last 5 yrs or so since the John Swift and LAG saga Lead is as it has always been, I suspect. Steel cartridges for the last few years have performed very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshootist Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 hour ago, mick miller said: Oh yes, it's the manufacturers fault. Not the overwhelmingly arrogance of a bunch of misinformed Henry's. Well I'm an informed Henry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Penelope said: You're still talking as though this is some kind of government-mandated legal ban. It really isn't. But given the shooting representative bodies announcement it could very easily become one in 5 years (or less). The Genie is out of the bottle ,you`ll never get it back in now....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) David basc is watching at this time are you going to comment David ....... so that was a no then. Edited February 28, 2020 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Rob85 said: I'm sure BASC thought they have more clout on the big stage than they have. If anyone has done research into cartridges it's going to be the manufacturers as their business relies on it. They won't be pushing a product if it's not going to be sustainable long term and cost them their business if they hadn't researched it to death first and got it all wrong. Steel or soft iron shot is going to be significantly more expensive to produce than lead because of the energy output required to make the shot never mind the loading equipment. It's not just about wads, the simple act of melting the iron for the shot is going to take a massive amount of energy in comparison to lead that they will need to invest a HUGE amount of money in new autoclaves or whatever they use for producing the shot itself. I for one am going to get the popcorn out and wait for the response from the organisations because I bet it's going to be a real climb down or a pathetic defence. Steel shot is actually pretty cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 All the empty carts on this farm are found after the season has finished around the drives, admittedly not many but they are there. Unsurprisingly, you never find them around the pigeon hides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papercase Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 hour ago, clangerman said: if anyone wishes to call people bashers haters and scabs could you please wait until the rest of us have found a solution by talking thank you It was me that used the S word - apologies. I was trying to get across my frustration in people leaving - but you can vote at the ballot or with your feet and those people are very welcome to do so. It's a very dirty word where I grew up in S. Yorks but it was meant in the collective not individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 i think we are missing the point here i had a full mix of people last night from half wits like myself to highly educated they all thought the same stuffing one metal for another into plastic cases is just as bad or we are trying some sort con trick i couldn’t disagree either because they were right a two year old could see we need to ban plastic first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, Papercase said: It was me that used the S word - apologies. I was trying to get across my frustration in people leaving - but you can vote at the ballot or with your feet and those people are very welcome to do so. It's a very dirty word where I grew up in S. Yorks but it was meant in the collective not individual. that’s ok your just annoyed what’s your thoughts on picking lead over plastic to ban first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 Been shooting lead for 50+ years, not about to change, unless I have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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