Lionhard Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 On 29/08/2013 at 09:34, shootgun said: Thanks, very helpfull having been a BASC member since 1974 I was taken aback by the suddenness and without consultation of the membership of their change in policy regarding the stance on lead/steel shot we have listened to the mantra of 'no evidence no change' for so long now, then its lets make the move to steel shot. I appreciate BASC has the interests of shooters at heart, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. My old traditional side by sides will probably not handle steel loads, so I either pack up shooting or by another steel proofed gun. I think lead will be around in the longer term, five years is to little time in which to develop viable steel cartridges for all guns and as steel is not a good replacement at the moment and other non - toxic loads are too expensive for driven days, they are OK to shoot a few mallard but can you imagine the cost on a 200 bird day! When the manufacturers realise they are not selling steel loads the wheels may come off the whole idea and the shelves could be full of the stuff. Also of course, not everyone is a member of a shooting organisation and will not feel compelled to go along with this, in which case it would require government legislation banning the sale of lead shot cartridges altogether. We are informed that supermarkets are now requiring shot game to be lead free but I know from experience that iron shot will rust in flesh and though not really hazardous to health may make such game with rusted pellets unpopular with customers, very few game birds are actually shot with steel at present but when pheasants are returned with a nasty brown stain in the breast meat then we may see a change in attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 30 minutes ago, lancer425 said: I dont i have a full 32 inch auto as do others full choke have no trouble . Replacement cost? Probably less than I paid to have mine fitted to me a single barrel will behave different to two joined together 3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Full of the joys of spring I see. I was fine until I got the Basc magazine today which was printed weeks ago obviously anyone working for Basc knew this was happening and plenty of notice to move on any of there guns not suitable for the non toxic non plastic cartridges sat in the ivory tower with the suit and tie pretending to be gentlemen with a grin as now they have devalued half the guns in the country and made half the rest obsolete not to mention costing everyone of us a small fortune in reloding equipment or extra costs on cartridges my personal cost for game cartridges has risen from £65 a slab to £300 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 18 minutes ago, Old farrier said: not to mention costing everyone of us a small fortune in reloding equipment or extra costs on cartridges my personal cost for game cartridges has risen from £65 a slab to £300 Nothing has changed Nothing, do not like it carry on regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Nothing has changed Nothing, do not like it carry on regardless. What may have changed is that the host shoots may insist on lead free (many already insist on fibre wads) - because the game dealers may insist on no lead shot game. Nothing has changed in law, but the buyers 'requirements' may well have changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 Just now, JohnfromUK said: What may have changed is that the host shoots may insist on lead free (many already insist on fibre wads) - because the game dealers may insist on no lead shot game. Nothing has changed in law, but the buyers 'requirements' may well have changed. That as you say is not about the law. If shoots decide you got to use steel then, thats up to the shoots. Shoot steel or non tox or go home/ dont go. I do not see any other option open to you. If they ban lead and Plastic as clearly some will. Its bismuth or these fibre wads no other show in town. The orgs were just trying to sugest a way of bringing about change a way forward to a life after Lead for all of us. Either we embrace it or ignore it both are legal options at this moment in time. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 17 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Nothing has changed Nothing, do not like it carry on regardless. Of course it’s changed It changed when Basc announced it they should have thought it through and got everything in place before they announced it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 According to lord Geoffrey Dear Basc president in the basc magazine just received, the case that lead is toxic is well proven, if as it seems likely EU countries shortly ban the sale of game shot with lead then 70 per cent of game currently shot in the uk which is exported to the continent will not have a market, where will it then go, and how robust will be the argument that everything that we shoot goes into the food chain? from the above it is quite clear that basc is only concerned with saving the large commercial shoots and does not care how they achieve that, as I doubt game from smaller shoots ends up being part of the 70 per cent that is exported. and given the five year transition period will result if lead shot game still being a significant part of the 70 per cent unless very carefully vetted and then the export quantity would fall considerably, the consequence could be the export market is lost anyway without an immediate comprehensive ban on lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 4 minutes ago, Old farrier said: they should have thought it through and got everything in place before they announced it This above, How they did so little research or consultation with the stake holders before making such a major announcement is staggering in incompetence and to try and say they are now trying to get grants from the government to help the cartridge manufactures is pathetic they should have secured any grants first with the help of the cartridge manufactures dimensioning the grant required. sorry as every day passes this just gets more of a mess, who ever was behind this should resign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 10 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Of course it’s changed It changed when Basc announced it they should have thought it through and got everything in place before they announced it At this moment in time it really hasn’t changed at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 Reading the BASC magazine it seems they are fairly sure the EU will bring in a complete ban on lead shot this year, if that is the case, it would be difficult to then sell our lead shot game into the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 1 minute ago, lancer425 said: At this moment in time it really hasn’t changed at all. Every think has changed we have publicly announced lead is toxic and a poison who will buy game now? Oh it’s ok we will just export the poison to the EU but obviously basc think that door is about to shut firmly closed. So no where for the game to enter the food chain so how the he’ll do you justify shooting it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, old'un said: Reading the BASC magazine it seems they are fairly sure the EU will bring in a complete ban on lead shot this year, if that is the case, it would be difficult to then sell our lead shot game into the EU. I read that as a ban of lead shot game, others I read else where are saying the EU may not yet totally ban lead other that stop it entering food. Nobody really know, know one has a crystal ball and we have left the EU so again no telling what Boris will or will not do. total speculation at this time, and no bases to use to make such a major decision, decision should be based on facts and evidence not speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 Just now, rbrowning2 said: Every think has changed we have publicly announced lead is toxic and a poison who will buy game now? Oh it’s ok we will just export the poison to the EU but obviously basc think that door is about to shut firmly closed. So no where for the game to enter the food chain so how the he’ll do you justify shooting it? Lead is toxic its not breaking news is it. We need to look at our sport after Lead, we need to change. shooters were not going to do it well not a lot of them anyway, and Cartridge companies will make what shooters buy like any other producer would. Our shooting organisations suggested a voluntary ban on lead and plaswads in live game shooting. The reasons were given. We go with that or not our choice. If i do not like it i wont do it. no one can force me to give up lead other than waterfowl. I am not breaking a law. 10 minutes ago, old'un said: Reading the BASC magazine it seems they are fairly sure the EU will bring in a complete ban on lead shot this year, if that is the case, it would be difficult to then sell our lead shot game into the EU. Impossible i would imagine. the smoke is clearing a bit now. methinks oldun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Lead is toxic its not breaking news is it. We need to look at our sport after Lead, we need to change. shooters were not going to do it well not a lot of them anyway, And they are still not going to until what ever they feed their gun is available in non toxic at a very similar price, simple. But now all buyers of game will have the expectation that it has been shot with no lead, be that an individual or the main buyer for a supermarket or export agency. Nobody denies a move to non toxic shot is going to happen but this has been a complete disaster in the way they are going about it and the way it was announced. https://markavery.info/2020/03/02/gwct-on-lead-ammunition/ Edited March 2, 2020 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holloway Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 On 24/02/2020 at 11:28, Papercase said: Personally I think it's a brave move from BASC and GWCT. - I also think it is the correct one. Remember this isn't just BASC it's all of the shooting organisations- for too long we've been on the back foot playing a rear guard action for our conservative ways. It's getting to the point where we either evolve or die - my best pheasant gun isn't superior steel proof however from what I understand from a number of sources is that these new cartridge shot cup technology which a number of manufacturers are or have developed work in non-steel proof guns. Yes my old favourite .410 Webley might be resigned to the wall or clay ground but I'd rather that than loose it all. There is no new science here - the writing has been on the walls for years and there is no good news in terms of lead - it is a poison regardless of if you've been eating it for 100 years and feel fine. Also cartridge manufacturers are set to be hit hugely by this - years of product development down the swanny I don't think it's some move for them to score more monies. BASC et al have fought tooth and nail to stop it as it has been the default position to resist change. Now they can concentrate on licences etc. To those scabs who think they're being sold down the river - wildfowlers take some incredible shots at high birds with steel and have for years often with old pre super steel guns. Evolve or die. Simple. Common sense at last ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 19 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: Every think has changed we have publicly announced lead is toxic and a poison who will buy game now? Oh it’s ok we will just export the poison to the EU but obviously basc think that door is about to shut firmly closed. So no where for the game to enter the food chain so how the he’ll do you justify shooting it? It has been common knowledge for years that lead is toxic; the big question was ‘ is it toxic enough to do us harm when eaten?’ And the answer, according to the FSA, is that there is no level of consumed lead deemed as harmless, yet by their own admission, the ‘potential’ for harm exists. Pregnant women and children are advised not to eat meat shot with lead, and yet again, there is no claim it will harm you if eaten in moderation. This has always been the case, but eaten in the levels it has been eaten it is obviously doing no one any harm. If people refuse to buy game which may contain lead shot, then it will effectively kill that market. If you don’t want to stop using lead shot then don’t, it’s not illegal to use it. It isn’t illegal to shoot game with lead shot either, if that’s what you want to do. It’s not even illegal to sell it to people who want to buy it either. It’s that simple. This is a voluntary ban on the face of it, so carry on as normal if you want. A lot can happen in five years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, holloway said: Common sense at last ! Absolutely . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 1 minute ago, holloway said: Common sense at last ! when the antis point out plastic has contaminated almost everything on the planet so this is about OUR needs and nobody else’s if you think bleating lead bad lead bad is going to cut it we will be eaten alive so much for common sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 Let’s just hope people still want to buy it that will be the test, fail it and it becomes impossible to justify killing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 4 minutes ago, Scully said: It has been common knowledge for years that lead is toxic; the big question was ‘ is it toxic enough to do us harm when eaten?’ And the answer, according to the FSA, is that there is no level of consumed lead deemed as harmless, yet by their own admission, the ‘potential’ for harm exists. Pregnant women and children are advised not to eat meat shot with lead, and yet again, there is no claim it will harm you if eaten in moderation. This has always been the case, but eaten in the levels it has been eaten it is obviously doing no one any harm. If people refuse to buy game which may contain lead shot, then it will effectively kill that market. If you don’t want to stop using lead shot then don’t, it’s not illegal to use it. It isn’t illegal to shoot game with lead shot either, if that’s what you want to do. It’s not even illegal to sell it to people who want to buy it either. It’s that simple. This is a voluntary ban on the face of it, so carry on as normal if you want. A lot can happen in five years. Good post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 Indeed one of the top ten plastic pollution found on Denmark shoreline is plastic wads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 1 minute ago, clangerman said: when the antis point out plastic has contaminated almost everything on the planet so this is about OUR needs and nobody else’s if you think bleating lead bad lead bad is going to cut it we will be eaten alive so much for common sense We will be eaten alive as you put it if we do not move away from lead. That is a certainty. You can march write every mp stand outside number 10 with a we want lead sandwich board banging a drum strapped ou you back. BUT lead is going . Get over it. She was never that pretty anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 The argument is not that we know we must move away from lead shot but could we have not gone about it in a much better way and still taken the initiative prior to any legal ban? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: Indeed one of the top ten plastic pollution found on Denmark shoreline is plastic wads. Well we all want to see an end to that i am sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, lancer425 said: We will be eaten alive as you put it if we do not move away from lead. That is a certainty. You can march write every mp stand outside number 10 with a we want lead sandwich board banging a drum strapped ou you back. BUT lead is going . Get over it. She was never that pretty anyway. i was over it on day one because i gave shooting ten years tops after this mess i give it five so the ban is irrelevant when we all we are using is catapults on the plus side ball bearings are the best ammo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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