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Lead ban & BASC


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4 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

There could well be aspects of this we may never get to know about.

  And for any number of reasons, however this is of little consequence why do we need to know every last detail.. Its not necessary.

Who did what why and when who knew who didn’t , could fill another 24 pages easy with all this.

  BUT if you are a Pro Lead i will fight this on the beaches  type. Or the exact opposite. compliant or non compliant. Makes no odds.

The Organisations have given us ALL a transition period, a breathing space a development time. a learning period. An adjustment period. Where we can try and get our house in order and in five years then negotiate any laws the government might look at implementing then.

I think we can realistically consider that our organisations probably had some form of intel on this issue. And the issuing of their voluntary ban can only be seen as a big positive for shooting.

 

i don’t care if it’s lead steel or fairy cakes i’m firing and i’m PRO basc my problem is members are paying incompetents to run a organisation representing shooters and even worse people deny that’s the case right men in the job would see me rejoin and fully support basc not once have basc won so much as a bun fight keep it up and we are finished the dinosaurs need to go now 

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2 minutes ago, clangerman said:

i don’t care if it’s lead steel or fairy cakes i’m firing and i’m PRO basc my problem is members are paying incompetents to run a organisation representing shooters and even worse people deny that’s the case right men in the job would see me rejoin and fully support basc not once have basc won so much as a bun fight keep it up and we are finished the dinosaurs need to go now 

OK. I dont agree, but if you feel so strongly about this run for council or get together and get someone to do it for you and those who feel the same way.

  I can see no wrong in BASC in their handling of this, i do not think we know all the details yet, and perhaps never will. Its a none issue it really is and easily put right, Just change BASC to how you want it to be. Getting upset and constantly bashing bASC is helping mo one we got work to do, and we need BASC all the others and all of us and all of you to get this job done.

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The documents I have, state that steel is not an alternative to lead which were submitted to ECHA. BASC supported the 24 page peer reviewed findings that lead was safer than steel and we should object to any future change, Submitted on 23/12/19 and the reason why ECHA are not bringing it up for discussion or review, the scientific evidence shows no safer or viable alternative!

 

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Just now, lancer425 said:

OK. I dont agree, but if you feel so strongly about this run for council or get together and get someone to do it for you and those who feel the same way.

  I can see no wrong in BASC in their handling of this, i do not think we know all the details yet, and perhaps never will. Its a none issue it really is and easily put right, Just change BASC to how you want it to be. Getting upset and constantly bashing bASC is helping mo one we got work to do, and we need BASC all the others and all of us and all of you to get this job done.

i couldn’t do a worse job that’s for sure but i’m to old in ten years time i will be gone this is for the rest of you keep them if you like give them a pay rise if you fancy it’s going to be your funeral not mine as i’m out tomorrow leave you with this i won’t get any credit when change comes so why would i bother if i’m not right 

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5 minutes ago, clangerman said:

i couldn’t do a worse job that’s for sure but i’m to old in ten years time i will be gone this is for the rest of you keep them if you like give them a pay rise if you fancy it’s going to be your funeral not mine as i’m out tomorrow leave you with this i won’t get any credit when change comes so why would i bother if i’m not right 

Again i dont think your right . I consider BASC do a great job, i am in five wildfowling clubs four in England the other in Scotland , all the English ones are affiliated to BASC and have BASC clunb membership in their subscriptions, I do claim back my Duplicated subscriptions, because i am in no position to donate them. But if i could i would, that is how pleased i am with BASC and what they do for me personally and the clubs i am in and those i know.

  BASC can only do what they can they have no remit in government . I feel they do all they can in their limited position and i think we are so lucky to have people with the knowledge and experience they can help  us with.

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6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Again i dont think your right . I consider BASC do a great job, i am in five wildfowling clubs four in England the other in Scotland , all the English ones are affiliated to BASC and have BASC clunb membership in their subscriptions, I do claim back my Duplicated subscriptions, because i am in no position to donate them. But if i could i would, that is how pleased i am with BASC and what they do for me personally and the clubs i am in and those i know.

  BASC can only do what they can they have no remit in government . I feel they do all they can in their limited position and i think we are so lucky to have people with the knowledge and experience they can help  us with.

Kent Wildfowlers the biggest wildfowling organisation ditched them 2 years ago.

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8 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Kent Wildfowlers the biggest wildfowling organisation ditched them 2 years ago.

Now there is a tale. But hey. Of course you are right, but i do not see How kent doing what they did is any bearing on ...... WELL ANYTHING, nobody got knocked down by a feather clever Trevor on that one perazi.

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2 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Again i dont think your right . I consider BASC do a great job, i am in five wildfowling clubs four in England the other in Scotland , all the English ones are affiliated to BASC and have BASC clunb membership in their subscriptions, I do claim back my Duplicated subscriptions, because i am in no position to donate them. But if i could i would, that is how pleased i am with BASC and what they do for me personally and the clubs i am in and those i know.

  BASC can only do what they can they have no remit in government . I feel they do all they can in their limited position and i think we are so lucky to have people with the knowledge and experience they can help  us with.

lucky to have basc? think we best have a poll on what members think of them paying basc wages so they can go around lying to people or on second thoughts let’s not waste everyone’s time think i best leave you to your denial mate 

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10 minutes ago, clangerman said:

lucky to have basc? think we best have a poll on what members think of them paying basc wages so they can go around lying to people or on second thoughts let’s not waste everyone’s time think i best leave you to your denial mate 

Pointless this. We are not going to agree lets just leave it at that. i know what BASC have done for me and the clubs i have been in over the years and although they get critisised by others, i and most i know feel they do a great job. slagging them off on here is doing nobody any favours . Not happy gather the clans and get it sorted. as i say i would if i felt like you seem to do.

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8 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Now there is a tale. But hey. Of course you are right, but i do not see How kent doing what they did is any bearing on ...... WELL ANYTHING, nobody got knocked down by a feather clever Trevor on that one perazi.

I think the point here is that they’re disposable. The relationship between many clubs and BASC was hanging by a thread prior to this ...

It will be interesting to see how many get tipped over the edge and also leave. 
 

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Lancer 425,

 Perhaps YOU need to know a few facts?

On Wednesday I visited BASC HQ @ Marford Mill because I am so concerned about the mess BASC aND OTHER ORGANISATIONS have made of this issue.

I asked who was responsible for issuing the 'voluntary lead ban statement' and was told it was the Communications Dept. I asked if I could speak with someone from that department?  I was asked what did I wish to discuss ? I was then told that no one was available .

I persisted and was then interviewd by a member of the Firearms Dept. I made my points of view known and the fact that BASC had issued statements not too long ago that they would support the continued use of Lead shot . ALL my points he agreed were correct and very valid . I then asked " Were the GT and Cartridge Manufacturers consulted ?"

The answer was " Yes and we have documentary evidence ." 

Then on Friday (yesterday ) Gamebore and Lyalvale Express issue statements to the contrary .

SOMEONE is not telling the truth !

Who do you think is being economical with the facts? 

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14 minutes ago, Salopian said:

Who do you think is being economical with the facts?

I think there is no answer, but I will suggest this as an underlying cause;

Both BASC and (to a smaller extent) the other shooting organisations are sizeable 'businesses' despite putting on a front of being membership organisations.  The cartridge manufacturers are also sizeable businesses.

They have (in my view) both acted in what they would consider to be the best interests of their businesses.  That doesn't necessarily have to be the 'truth', but is the corporate line on the issue.  A trait largely inherited from the political and government world.  The concept of truth in politics has been declining for years - but was finally was destroyed by Tony Blair, Alastair Campbell and Peter Mandleson.

Just my view.

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17 minutes ago, Salopian said:

Lancer 425,

 Perhaps YOU need to know a few facts?

On Wednesday I visited BASC HQ @ Marford Mill because I am so concerned about the mess BASC aND OTHER ORGANISATIONS have made of this issue.

I asked who was responsible for issuing the 'voluntary lead ban statement' and was told it was the Communications Dept. I asked if I could speak with someone from that department?  I was asked what did I wish to discuss ? I was then told that no one was available .

I persisted and was then interviewd by a member of the Firearms Dept. I made my points of view known and the fact that BASC had issued statements not too long ago that they would support the continued use of Lead shot . ALL my points he agreed were correct and very valid . I then asked " Were the GT and Cartridge Manufacturers consulted ?"

The answer was " Yes and we have documentary evidence ." 

Then on Friday (yesterday ) Gamebore and Lyalvale Express issue statements to the contrary .

SOMEONE is not telling the truth !

Who do you think is being economical with the facts? 

I honestly do not trust the cartridge companies in this country, i had a trade account with one years and foolishly built up a side line where a great many people were dependent on that account not just me. Overnight on a whim they decide to stop supplying key components to everyone.

I will never buyanlther cartridge off a uk cartridge firm unless i have litteraly no other option.  Sorry but i would back BASC and the other orgs in front of that bunch of greedy so and sos.

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2 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

I think the point here is that they’re disposable. The relationship between many clubs and BASC was hanging by a thread prior to this ...

It will be interesting to see how many get tipped over the edge and also leave. 
 

Thats about people, not so much the work BASC do , you know that as much as me. BASC have been being run down in wildfowling now for some time by a few who have an interest in running them down. Traveling the country to do so it is in their interests and the brains behind them needs the money badly. . Much of the trouble stems from incidents beyond BASCs control at the time. The details of which are now forgotten by many or simply not known about. Tell me if i am wrong now just yes or no. But since BASC handling if you like went to A different person. has BASC/ club relationships got better or worse. Better how i see it. Its people and attitudes, i just do not think BASC has much chance when its being undermined from within. Weed out this trouble and its slowly happening and we can perhaps get back to normal.

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It seems to me BASC have for years followed the path of least resistance, placation and conflict avoidance? I do not think this approach has worked well for shooting and perhaps should change to a more honest and robust defence of shooting and stronger more direct opposition to further regulation?

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4 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

It seems to me BASC have for years followed the path of least resistance, placation and conflict avoidance? I do not think this approach has worked well for shooting and perhaps should change to a more honest and robust defence of shooting and stronger more direct opposition to further regulation?

I agree up to a point, they simply can not go with the direct approach . NOT BIG ENOUGH.

 With what they got they do what they can the best they can. We are a small country, and like small birds in bad weather they / we suffer. As shooters we have to deal with some of the stricktest gun laws in the country, and administration by a police force that to some extent makes the rules up as they go along. and who has the final word REGARDLESS.

 The young coming in do not redress the old dieing and giving up. Dark times for sure, but infighting and tearing our biggest organisation apart by some factions in shooting , is weakening our position even more.

  I think we have done well to stay around as long as we have given all the pressures shooting is under.

Crying about the gun laws or lead or anything , and witch-hunting are doing us no favours, we either get behind then or Finnish up even weaker. We do not have the options. Sad i know but things are that bad. 

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12 hours ago, clangerman said:

i don’t care if it’s lead steel or fairy cakes i’m firing and i’m PRO basc my problem is members are paying incompetents to run a organisation representing shooters and even worse people deny that’s the case right men in the job would see me rejoin and fully support basc not once have basc won so much as a bun fight keep it up and we are finished we need the  dinosaurs back now.

Just corrected your slip of the pen. Could also find the odd Philistine and if the CEO could be a Magna cum Laude graduate of the GKSC I'd rejoin in a flash.

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Perhaps BASC members, and Members of the other Organisations, should find out who represents them locally, so that they can feed them their personal views on the Non Toxic Shot matter.  We are told that the decision was democratically discussed and approved by the Council, so we need to know who to talk to.  How do you find this information ?

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1 hour ago, Salopian said:

 

 

I persisted and was then interviewd by a member of the Firearms Dept. I made my points of view known and the fact that BASC had issued statements not too long ago that they would support the continued use of Lead shot . ALL my points he agreed were correct and very valid . I then asked " Were the GT and Cartridge Manufacturers consulted ?"

The answer was " Yes and we have documentary evidence ." 

Then on Friday (yesterday ) Gamebore and Lyalvale Express issue statements to the contrary .

SOMEONE is not telling the truth !

Who do you think is being economical with the facts? 

 Well done to you sir I admire your persistence. 

 Perhaps is BASC have documentary evidence they should publish it.

 Somebody’s   Not telling the truth 

 

 I can’t be bothered I really can’t to be a member of an organisation  that will not tell the truth,  The same as I cannot be bothered to buy cartridges from cartridge companies that won’t tell the truth either 

 So I need to get to the bottom of this one for myself, 

 One thing I do know is all the people that shoot and the industries need the right representation and we need it now 

 If you bought a car off of a car dealer and that car blew up the next day  and the dealership wouldn’t do anything about it would you go back  and buy another car off of them?

Edited by silver fox 1
Just to add
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40 minutes ago, cardigun said:

How do you find this information ?

I think if you look in the BASC magazine (towards the end) it lists the sub-areas like Scotland, SE, Wales etc and the area reps. However, as the statement(s) were distributed from the BASC media centre at Marford Mill, an approach direct to them might be the better route. I think one of our members has already visited them in person. Might have been Salopian, have a search for his posts.

Edited by JJsDad
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Why exactly are we perusing this line of thought on who said what to who and when. The cartridge manufacturers are clearly not telling the truth anyway we all know if all this came to law tonight they would get products out in double quick time. we are barely a fortnight in and joker have a product out there. Truth is they do not want to do this that is the top and bottom of it.

But keep digging keep scratching, you might get a Name even a face to blame for ALL THIS HORROR.  then you can sit down give yourselves a big pat on the back and say A JOB WELL DONE. Culprit finished goes straight into a new job in DEFRA ETC . Only ones getting injured here are us. Let go move on lets get done what our Organisations suggest we do as best we can at the moment.

Hearing conspiracy theory but not seeing any evidence, no real reason to believe its any more than typical reluctance to change on all sides both shooters and cartridge firms.

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UK Cartridge manufactures are in business to make money, why if it was simple for them tomorrow to change over to steel shot and biodegradable wads would they opt not to do so? Especially as given the value add of the biodegradable wads and less competition  the profit on these cartridges look to be far greater than the equivalent in lead shot and non biodegradable wads.

you cannot double quick time extra manufacturing capacity if it is not their in the first place and any increase in production capacity would need a significant investment and just may be the manufacture of the water soluble wads does not have that kind of money after all it was funded by EU grants and may be they consider their is no urgency on their part to bailout the uk cartridge industry preferring to simply sell the wads to their EU Spanish partners.
To dismiss the UK cartridge manufacture for not telling the truth with no facts and figures to back it up makes no sense.

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19 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Why exactly are we perusing this line of thought on who said what to who and when. The cartridge manufacturers are clearly not telling the truth anyway we all know if all this came to law tonight they would get products out in double quick time. we are barely a fortnight in and joker have a product out there. Truth is they do not want to do this that is the top and bottom of it.

But keep digging keep scratching, you might get a Name even a face to blame for ALL THIS HORROR.  then you can sit down give yourselves a big pat on the back and say A JOB WELL DONE. Culprit finished goes straight into a new job in DEFRA ETC . Only ones getting injured here are us. Let go move on lets get done what our Organisations suggest we do as best we can at the moment.

Hearing conspiracy theory but not seeing any evidence, no real reason to believe its any more than typical reluctance to change on all sides both shooters and cartridge firms.

 I think you’re missing the point the shooting organisation and the cartridge companies started this,  I personally I’m not looking for a name or a face to blame,  I just don’t like being lied to,  you can imagine if it’s the cartridge  companies  that are lying   It means they could be putting anything in the cartridges and telling you there safe,  if it’s a shooting organisations  that are lying  it means they’re just looking out for their selves,  they all need to get their house in order now 

 And I for one will not support anybody that lies  simple as 

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