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17 minutes ago, strimmer_13 said:

Think it's time I stopped lining bascs pockets. 

I dont think many could afford the cost if they still intend to keep shooting, ive just compared the cost of lead and steel. 

Its above my spending allowance. But isnt that what they want anyway ???

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5 minutes ago, Dougy said:

I dont think many could afford the cost if they still intend to keep shooting, ive just compared the cost of lead and steel. 

Its above my spending allowance. But isnt that what they want anyway

My thoughts exactly. 

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On 23/02/2020 at 19:15, PeterHenry said:

Not a great deal of use if you use a 2 1/2" chambered gun though

Homeload. 

23 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

More on this 

we should not forget other gauges than 12 are in use.

Homeload.

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There was in fact an initial voluntary ban on lead for wildfowling, which was better supported on the coast than inland. It was instigated by BASC and the clubs, and bought time for the development of far better cartridges than we started with (some of the early steel was very poor). Finally of course there was legislation, which was caused by the Blair government signing up to the Afro-Eurasian Waterfowl Agreement. Not a lot any organisation could do about that. Given that there is a new Environment Act due in the coming parliamentary session, and a new Wildlife and Countryside Act due at some point, perhaps there is some long term thinking going on here. I don't know, so don't bend my ear - I try to put facts rather than opinions on here.

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14 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

Homeload. 

Homeload.

Not sure that homeload will be a cheap alternative or possible, given that to comply with the no one use plastic you only have the option to use the cardboard cup wads in 12ga at around £150 per 1000 for the wads and their is nothing available for any other gauge as far as I know that you can buy. All other wads in the shops are not biodegradable.

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42 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

 

I didn't watch to the end of the video but the first 5 minutes or it, definitely he is on the same hymn sheet as me.

I think it's a shame the way it has been announced, and handled especially with the rumours. The organisations lately have continually been on the back foot. Too many boozy lunches perhaps. In this instance it looks like they are on the front foot, but when you consider they are actually waving a white flag, it's less impressive.

However, like it or not single use plastics and lead were going to be banned at some future point. The timing is strange, both so out of the blue and the arbitrary phase-out that they've announced for all shooters. Maybe five years ties in with the fixed term parliament and they are reckoning on a future government being less sympathetic, who knows.

There is no going back from this, and unfortunately it won't stop attacks on shooting, in fact it may even buoy them.

Nevertheless ultimately I personally think it's a good thing that lead and plastic wads are being phased out. The only thing that is peculiar is that clay shooting still allows both, whilst I understand the rationale, it will make it hard to enforce. Which risks being a blight on shootings reputation.

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2 minutes ago, Teal said:

I didn't watch to the end of the video but the first 5 minutes or it, definitely he is on the same hymn sheet as me.

I think it's a shame the way it has been announced, and handled especially with the rumours. The organisations lately have continually been on the back foot. Too many boozy lunches perhaps. In this instance it looks like they are on the front foot, but when you consider they are actually waving a white flag, it's less impressive.

However, like it or not single use plastics and lead were going to be banned at some future point. The timing is strange, both so out of the blue and the arbitrary phase-out that they've announced for all shooters. Maybe five years ties in with the fixed term parliament and they are reckoning on a future government being less sympathetic, who knows.

There is no going back from this, and unfortunately it won't stop attacks on shooting, in fact it may even buoy them.

Nevertheless ultimately I personally think it's a good thing that lead and plastic wads are being phased out. The only thing that is peculiar is that clay shooting still allows both, whilst I understand the rationale, it will make it hard to enforce. Which risks being a blight on shootings reputation.

A ban for clay shooting will come as sure as night follows day. In fairness a lot of clay grounds only allow fibre now unless it's a competition day. You'd have to consider the fact it's a legit Olympic sport so bans could disadvantage Team GB comp shooters until shot and wad are better developed.

I also suspect the move to clay shooting will come once the price comes down. Most club shooters don't usually pay more than £220-230 a 1000 where as game shooters I guess are used to paying more for cartridges? Just a guess on my part.

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21 minutes ago, Teal said:

I didn't watch to the end of the video but the first 5 minutes or it, definitely he is on the same hymn sheet as me.

I think it's a shame the way it has been announced, and handled especially with the rumours. The organisations lately have continually been on the back foot. Too many boozy lunches perhaps. In this instance it looks like they are on the front foot, but when you consider they are actually waving a white flag, it's less impressive.

However, like it or not single use plastics and lead were going to be banned at some future point. The timing is strange, both so out of the blue and the arbitrary phase-out that they've announced for all shooters. Maybe five years ties in with the fixed term parliament and they are reckoning on a future government being less sympathetic, who knows.

There is no going back from this, and unfortunately it won't stop attacks on shooting, in fact it may even buoy them.

Nevertheless ultimately I personally think it's a good thing that lead and plastic wads are being phased out. The only thing that is peculiar is that clay shooting still allows both, whilst I understand the rationale, it will make it hard to enforce. Which risks being a blight on shootings reputation.

That’s ok, but a ban on carts, wads and lead all in one?

 

1. We don’t really REALLY need plastic wads for lead shot. So 5 years to ban them. Or not a ban, a move by cart manufacturers removing them from production. They all sign up to it  

2. Plastic cartridges, The same in the next 5 year. Modern biodegradable or paper  

3. Lead, by 2035. Giving extra time for development. 
 

Are all the organisations going to spend their reserves (and money spent on their jollies) on developments?

 

I do find it quite ironic BASC have done more ‘media’ today than I’ve ever seen them do.  

 


 

 

Edited by markm

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8 hours ago, bostonmick said:

I look forward to the day of the announcement that the body against sports of country (basc) have a new honorary president in one Mr c. Packham. 

at least you don’t feel stupid i actually changed my mind after hearing the so called basc good works from people on here how dumb do i feel now with my trousers pulled down by our own side easiest victory the antis ever had they must  be laughing their heads of at us 

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1 hour ago, mudpatten said:

Almost 20 years ago the wildfowling community was hit with the first lead ban. The world stood still for a moment and there was much weeping into beer and wringing of hands.

Fast forward a few years and, although fowling might have some other issues to contend with, steel shot and it`s effectiveness is NOT one of them.

We`ll look back at this in a few years time and wonder what all the fuss was about.

 

.

The main reason wildflowers aren't still crying is because they would be lucky if they shot 50-100 cartridges each a year whereas think of the pigeon decoyer/pest controller who could rattle out 300+ in a session never mind over the course of a year

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9 minutes ago, Teal said:

I didn't watch to the end of the video but the first 5 minutes or it, definitely he is on the same hymn sheet as me.

I think it's a shame the way it has been announced, and handled especially with the rumours. The organisations lately have continually been on the back foot. Too many boozy lunches perhaps. In this instance it looks like they are on the front foot, but when you consider they are actually waving a white flag, it's less impressive.

However, like it or not single use plastics and lead were going to be banned at some future point. The timing is strange, both so out of the blue and the arbitrary phase-out that they've announced for all shooters. Maybe five years ties in with the fixed term parliament and they are reckoning on a future government being less sympathetic, who knows.

There is no going back from this, and unfortunately it won't stop attacks on shooting, in fact it may even buoy them.

Nevertheless ultimately I personally think it's a good thing that lead and plastic wads are being phased out. The only thing that is peculiar is that clay shooting still allows both, whilst I understand the rationale, it will make it hard to enforce. Which risks being a blight on shootings reputation.

After watching this I must admit I found myself agreeing, and am of a similar opinion; which doesn't mean I'm not annoyed at the way it was done. When all is said and done customers dictate sales, and if we want to ensure the future of shooting through the sale of shot birds, then as much as I am loathe to admit it, I see no alternative. We aren't out of the woods yet ( it was interesting that he touched on a possible requirement for reproofing of non steel proofed guns which had been used for steel shot, to undergo reproof prior to their sale...if I understood him correctly ) much of the outcome for many guns and the retention of their values will depend on our cartridge manufacturers, but it's not as gloomy as it first appeared when the news was first aired. 

No doubt the fact that commercial shoots which have to sell their shot birds will dictate that steel is used on sold days, but meanwhile there is nothing to prevent smaller syndicates which just consume their own birds, from ignoring legislation and using lead...until a complete ban comes in, making it illegal. Whilst it is still legal to use lead for trap shooting, there will be those who use it for game. 

I'm still of the opinion that if there is to be a lead shot ban then it should apply to all disciplines; we're a fractured enough lot as it is.

What really really annoys me is the fact that following the last lead shot debacle, it was confirmed that eating lead shot in game, in the quantities it is eaten, does no harm to anyone, including pregnant women and children. It is yet another case of PC. 

Whilst the continuation of using lead shot may have potentially spelled the demise of the future of UK shooting, don't be fooled into believing that the adoption of steel will ensure that future. 

Count up all that we as UK shooters have lost in the last 40 years ( despite the claims of our shooting organisations ) and compare it to all we have gained in the same period. Bitter? Me? Certainly. 

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1 hour ago, Dougy said:

I dont think many could afford the cost if they still intend to keep shooting, ive just compared the cost of lead and steel. 

Its above my spending allowance. But isnt that what they want anyway

But, at least in the meantime time we can all prepare by saving money by switching back to cheaper plastic wad alternatives..

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1 minute ago, mossy835 said:

so how many members will the ogs lose,

I reckon a lot of members will not renew as they will feel the orgs have handled things badly.

The rumours were bouncing around early last week.

We found out when they announced what they had done, not what they were considering doing.

A lead ban is inevitable, could have been handled better though!

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My guess would be very few as they did it en masse. Which is why presumably it couldn’t be softly consulted about etc. When everyone gets over the shock and the calms down we may have a better dialogue with our representative bodies. 

I do find the specificity of the ban only applying to ‘live quarry shot at in a smooth bore guns’ to be utterly bizarre. But let’s face it, the ban on lead was coming. We have jumped before we were pushed in the hope of finding a softer landing. 

7 minutes ago, mossy835 said:

so how many members will the ogs lose,

 

7 minutes ago, mossy835 said:

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Nine shooting and rural organisations have today announced they want an end to the use of lead and single-use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting within five years.
 
The British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC), British Game Alliance (BGA), Countryside Alliance (CA), Country Land and Business Association (CLA), Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust (GWCT), National Gamekeepers’ Organisation (NGO), the Moorland Association (MA), Scottish Land & Estates (SLE) and Scottish Association for Country Sports (SACS) say significant recent advances in technology have enabled the transition to take place.
 
The group is calling for the support of the wider shooting community and says such a change will benefit wildlife and the environment while also safeguarding the growing market for healthy game meat.

Further information is available on the websites of the above nine organisations and you can also find the latest information on BASC’s website at www.basc.org.uk/lead

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1 hour ago, clangerman said:

at least you don’t feel stupid i actually changed my mind after hearing the so called basc good works from people on here how dumb do i feel now with my trousers pulled down by our own side easiest victory the antis ever had they must  be laughing their heads of at us 

After the GP mess then we had the wj general license and now give up lead I believe we are still on the thin edge of what will be a very large wedge. It seems the new way to deal with challenges to our sport is to go along with what the anti brigade want. 

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2 hours ago, Pushandpull said:

There was in fact an initial voluntary ban on lead for wildfowling, which was better supported on the coast than inland. It was instigated by BASC and the clubs, and bought time for the development of far better cartridges than we started with (some of the early steel was very poor). Finally of course there was legislation, which was caused by the Blair government signing up to the Afro-Eurasian Waterfowl Agreement. Not a lot any organisation could do about that. Given that there is a new Environment Act due in the coming parliamentary session, and a new Wildlife and Countryside Act due at some point, perhaps there is some long term thinking going on here. I don't know, so don't bend my ear - I try to put facts rather than opinions on here.

 Out run up was nothing like this one though. And when it came in we had to look around hard to even find steel, it was easier to reload ITM at £20 a kilo ex gamebore or a little more from Ian C and his ill fated ITM kits wads etc.

3Kgs of bismuth was about £33, but that shot up, but now in its ingot form is not that much more. Melting it and dropping it into 6s for game for a home shot dropper is going to save a lot on buying it in ready made.

My point is today there are well rehearsed well known options  out there. My first factory steel load, was Lyalvale hunting steel 4. i only hope they have improved that load today, that was disgustingly bad. I remember standing on the side of the river after i had hit a drake mallard at about 35 yards and had to finish it off with another two.  I just could not see this ever working not ever.  Decided to try reloading some steel First off stripping the remainder of the hunting steel, and building the wads and shot into a BLUE DOT load. This was like flicking a switch on.

Reloading was clearly the way, managed to get a huge amount of massively over engineered MEC steel wads, these coupled with The OLD M92S"B&P" powder in a cheap 70mm 33 gram of 3.8mm steel , were the start of happier times, confidence grew and it was hard to imagine how that first ammo could have ever been that bad.

Now we have some factory options which work well, those coming into using steel today will have a much gentler baptisum than wildfowlers did back then.

22 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I reckon a lot of members will not renew as they will feel the orgs have handled things badly.

The rumours were bouncing around early last week.

We found out when they announced what they had done, not what they were considering doing.

A lead ban is inevitable, could have been handled better though!

Untidy how it came out but no real surprise, its out now we need to run with it. No real option in the fullness of time.

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Misinformation is rife on this issue from various keyboard warriors. Some FAQs are below to help bust the myths:

FAQs

B
 

Recent technological developments have made non-lead shot more effective, more widely available and more affordable. Equally, biodegradable wads are now a possibility. These advances are continuing at pace and it is now time for the wider live quarry shooting community to join the wildfowlers, who have used non-lead alternatives successfully for the last twenty years.

In addition, there are over-burdening legislative changes coming down the line as a result of work being undertaken by the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA).

Despite Brexit, we are expecting that these regulations will be implemented in the UK either due to a requirement to sell lead free game into Europe, or by UK legislation.

Collectively, we are calling for a phased transition away from the use of lead shot in shotgun shooting for all live quarry.

We are also calling for the end of single-use plastics in all shotgun ammunition.

We feel that both goals are achievable within a five-year time frame, allowing suitable time for the industry to respond with new product development and ensure adequate supply.

Concerns around the use of lead shot limit the current market for game products, and retailers are increasingly asking for game that has been shot with non-lead alternatives. Additionally, lead has been progressively removed from other substances, such as petrol and paint.


There is growing concern about the damage lead shot causes to wildlife away from wetlands. The fact that non-lead alternatives of suitable quality are increasingly available means that we should transition towards them.

Alternatives include steel, bismuth and tungsten-based shots. These are available in a variety of shot sizes and calibres.

No. Each metal behaves differently and those that shoot need to be aware of the differences. Simple patterning tests and practice on clays will help ensure that Guns identify which is best suited to their guns and their intended quarry.

This is a rumour from the very early days of steel shot development. Field trials comparing lead and steel shot have found no differences in a number of measures, including lethality and effectiveness at practical shooting ranges [1].

[1]  An 11-year study at the Camargue, in France, found that: “After 11 years of hunting with non-toxic shot, there was unexpectedly no clear pattern in trends of individual effectiveness among hunters.” (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10344-014-0897-x)

Steel shot is classified as either standard or high performance. If your gun is nitro-proofed (i.e. it can fire modern lead loads) then it will be safe to fire standard performance steel. This is generally steel of size 4 or smaller.

High performance steel must be marked as such on the box, and should only be fired through guns bearing the fleur-de-lys proofmark, and usually with the words “STEEL SHOT” stamped on the barrel. If you have any doubt about your gun, seek the advice of an expert gunsmith.

Tests have found that standard performance 24g steel loads did not cause any damage in thin-walled game guns, even after a thousand shots [1]. However, if you are unable to use steel then your main alternative is bismuth, which is suitable for both muzzle-loading and Damascus-barrelled guns.

Bismuth does cost more than both lead and steel but, ultimately, this is all about choices and securing the future of sustainable shooting.

[1]  The Assessment of the Tolerance of Shotgun Chokes to Steel Shot – An Initial Study: Dr DF Allsop, Royal Military College of Science (1991).

Recent developments in soft steel shotgun cartridges should provide alternatives to lead suitable for all normal game-shooting ranges. Such ammunition is safe in the modern guns that are generally used for high bird shooting.

All shot can ricochet. This is most likely to occur off rocks or other hard surfaces and, to a lesser extent, water and trees.

There is evidence that steel ricochets slightly more than lead, but this is in a more predictable path [1]. The fact remains that an unsafe shot with lead is an unsafe shot with steel.

[1]  Ricochet & Bounce Back Studies Using Steel & Lead Shot: Dr DF Allsop, Defence Academy of the United Kingdom, Cranfield University (2009).

Caution should be taken when eating game, because any type of shot can damage teeth, including lead and bismuth. There is a chance of damage if you were to accidentally bite steel shot, but dentists in countries that have already phased out lead have not seen an increase in tooth damage due to biting shot since the transition.

They are. Gun and cartridge manufactures must test to agreed standards. The USA standard allows for higher and faster loads than Europe.

A CIP (the European organisation responsible for the safety testing of firearms and ammunition) working group, with UK representation, is studying the possibility of raising velocity and shot weight limits for steel to those set by SAAMI (the US equivalent to CIP), to increase performance. We are collectively lobbying to ensure priority for such changes.

Yes. We anticipate that, as interest and demand for non-lead shot grows, further developments in cartridge manufacture will rapidly meet any remaining needs. We are working closely with manufacturers, and lobbying for technical development grants from the government, to ensure that these advances continue apace.

Advances in steel shot cartridges have resulted in viable lead shot alternatives for larger wildfowl such as geese. However, adult foxes may require greater shot pellet density for effective penetration, energy transfer and humane despatch.

There are a number of excellent non-lead alternatives in use for coyote and fox shooting in the USA, said by many to work even better than lead. During the transition period, we will be working with cartridge manufacturers and importers to ensure these alternatives become available in the UK.

If you have checked with a gunsmith, and are confident that your gun is suitable, we suggest using steel shot going forward. Ask for shot two sizes larger than you currently use in lead (e.g. size 4 steel if you currently use size 6 in lead) and insist on biodegradable wads.

Yes. Denmark, the Netherlands and the Flemish region of Belgium.

They have not reported any problems with the effectiveness. Indeed, in many cases steel shot has been found to pattern more successfully than lead and to have superior levels of penetration.

This is true, but the situation Norway faced in 2014 is quite different from where we are now, in 2020. Their principal reason for reversing a lead ban was insufficient lethality in their available non-lead rifle ammunition.

In addition, the use of shotguns in Norwegian woodland is very low compared with the UK. Furthermore, the quality of non-lead shotgun cartridges has increased significantly over the last six years and will only continue to do so during our transition period. We are not proposing any change to rifle ammunition.

The development of non-lead cartridges has been rapid and ongoing. However, there are still improvements to be made in availability and choice, especially for smaller-gauge guns. We are therefore phasing the transition over a five-year period to enable manufacturers to bring the products that are currently in development to market.

No. There is now a huge market for recycled plastic and we are encouraging guns to support manufacturers’ efforts to produce plastic cartridges from recycled, rather than new, plastic. We are calling for an end to non-biodegradable plastic wads in shotgun cartridges, which are not routinely or effectively collected during live quarry shooting.

Viable alternatives are being researched. Where lead ammunition is used in a contained environment, such as a range, or there is an absence of reasonable alternatives, we feel lead should continue to be used.

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42 minutes ago, mossy835 said:

so how many members will the ogs lose,

A lot I imagine - and rightly so in my mind.

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18 hours ago, grahamch said:

This has just been announced on Farming Today on Radio 4. The spineless  who repeesent us have caved in to the birdy boys. BASC will not be getting another penny from me.  

How have they caved in? Tell me where all the lead shot pheasants, pigeons etc would go, when there won't be a market in the EU.

16 hours ago, Sharpshooter.123 said:

We have all been well and truly done over and it seems we have literally no choice in the matter!! Time to order 20k of cartridges I think 🤔 either the price will rocket over the next few years or they will be pulled from shelves slowly 🤷🏼‍♂️ Definitely time to leave these shooting organisations 👍🏻👍🏻

What would be the point in ordering 20000 shells? If a ban came in, you would be shooting illegally.

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11 hours ago, Sharpshooter.123 said:

I certainly won’t be beating whilst shooters are shooting steel shot into tree tops! Will be pinging off everything!! 

It really won't!

11 hours ago, Rob85 said:

So if I had my guns chokes opened to half and quarter to shoot steel is there also not something about steel through half choke being the equivalent of full or super full choke? So with the advice of also reducing the range of your shots and taking a 15-20yd decoyed pigeon with something like that.. is there not a chance of ending up with shredded birds that are no good for eating? Thereby also rendering the "eat what we shoot" argument null and void

No, that isn't the case at all. Firstly, don't butcher your gun for no reason. In my experience, half choke with steel doesn't pattern nearly as tight as a full choke with lead. I have shot a lot of decoyed pigeons with steel and extra full choke. Unless they are ridiculously close, they aren't blown to bits.

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7 hours ago, Rob85 said:

It's kinda a kick in the teeth for people like me who can just about afford to shoot as it is. My guns are both half and full choke, a 1960s aya yeoman and a 1980s sarasketa over under. Both guns in no way made to shoot steel shot and have very little commercial value and the big point is they were all I could afford so now I will have to go and put almost the same amount of money again in to them to get the chokes opened up. This also runs the risk of going wrong and my guns patterning all over the place.

Maybe BASC could subsidise me seeing as they are leading the charge?

 

Obviously I can't see your guns or what proof markings they have, but I would bet they would be fine with steel In one way or another, with the chokes just as they are.

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