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Okay  Computer Guru's ,

Would someone be so kind as to print any relevant statements issued by BASC or anyone else about the disbanding and conclusions from the LAG chaired by John Swift late of BASC.

If I remember correctly after many months of meetings and deliberation , no quantifiable results were obtained for the immediate cessation of the use of Lead shot .

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3 hours ago, wymberley said:

I'm having trouble paying any attention to someone who thinks that patterning a shotgun relates to a couple of scraps of cardboard and a barbed wire fence and unbelievably earns an income from it.

There's lot of confidence in that interview that the solutions are going to come to market within 5 years. I wish they had addressed the manufacturers statements. 

He did ask though, "why did you prioritise number of birds shot"?

Edited by theshootist
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On 28/02/2020 at 20:35, rbrowning2 said:

Well said their needs to some accountability if need be basc can bring the gun trade association along to the meeting.

 

below is the history of the pva water soluble wads eley are using it has taken nine years to get to where we are today with them and lots of eu money. 

https://watersoluble.green-cycles.com/2012/10/01/plasticos-hidrosolubles-aiju-develop-hunting-cartridge-wads-based-on-pva-biodegradable-materials/

I use pva products extensively for angling. It is imperative to keep it bone dry, the slightest hint of moisture turns it to glue or melts it completely (the intended purpose, but only once it's in the water).

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23 hours ago, mick miller said:

In a toss up between lead shot and big bag, commercial game shooting I'd rather see the demise of commercial game shooting myself. No one here (on this farm) sells game to the EU, everyone takes them home and eats them themselves. Mind you, they also don't expect to be able to blatt hundreds of birds from the sky with a loader beside them, all in the name of 'sport'. I can see who BASC et al clearly favour with their choices and it isn't the air rifle shooter, deer stalker, target shooter, clay shooter, pigeon shooter, vermin shooter, practical shotgun shooter or small walked up game shooter...

Oh, the glorious twelfth will soon be here again, now where did I put my branded Schoffel gilet and the keys to my Range Rover?

Please take that chip off of your shoulder.

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13 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Motty, their is things like patients and IP that will be in place protecting the not inconsiderable investment that the Spanish company behind the pva wads that eley are using, that’s how a business expect to eventually make a return on their investment it stops anybody Stealing their inventions.

The patient on the gamebore fibre cups has expired last time I looked but they may have renewed it or still own the IP rights.

Obviously the uk cartridge manufactures know far more than we do so we must assume as eley and gamebore are both part of the statement they jointly made that their is no wonder wad on the horizon and that increasing production of either the pva wad or cardboard cup wad will not be a quick process or has other manufacturing limitations which will keep the cost of the cartridges at a silly price for the average shooter.
Such limitation as they are only in 12gauge are expensive and that cartridge production speed must be very slow, given the pva wad needs the petals of the case mouth of the cartridge welding together to keep any moisture out otherwise the shelf life of the cartridge could be in days or weeks as the wad dissolves within the cartridge.

Also PVA (polyvinyl alcohol) is a type of 'polymer' or plastic.

 

The shelf life could be hours with PVA, in the field.

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51 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Please take that chip off of your shoulder.

I'll keep it there thanks, as a reminder of how we've all been sold down the river in a doomed attempt to defend the indefensible. 

But I've said all I want to say on this decision, I think my views are clear enough. 

Edited by mick miller
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8 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

My current understanding for the sort of load I think I need is 'thought through' like this;

I currently use either 26 or 28g of No 6 lead from a 2 1/2" cartridge with fibre wads.  I am happy it suits what I do.

The drivers for me are:

  1. Must be 2 1/2" compatible (because that is how the guns are chambered)
  2. Must be fibre wad (because that is mandated by the landlords who have sheep and cattle and I doubt will be prepared to wait for bio degradeable plastic to degrade).
  3. Should be ideally similar in both recoil and striking energy/range to current loads with my less than 1/2 choke guns (mostly improved and quarter).  Some range reduction can be tolerated

I think what I will need is something like:

  • 28 or 30g of No 4 steel (because No 4 seems to be both suitable with fibre/card wads and have adequate striking energy)
  • Fibre/card type 'enclosing' wad to protect the barrel
  • A little 'common sense' in using at ranges at which it proves capable (this may need a bit of a learning curve)

My current understanding is that there are fibre/card wads (don't ask where from, because I don't know, but I have heard that to be the case) that exist to meet this requirement and they are OK with shot sizes 4 and smaller, but larger shot can punch through them.  I don't believe any commercial load is yet available.  These can be loaded in 2 1/2" cases and within current proof pressures.  They are generally thought to be a little more restricted in range, but given some good old common sense, I can live with that.

What I don't know is;

  1. whether such a load will be made available commercially (but suspect it will because the demand will be there)
  2. What the concerns over steel for forestry will be
  3. What the concerns over ricochets for shooting in woods will be

I am prepared to await developments - some of which I hope will run along the lines above.  I will check any proposed new type with a suitable 'authority' as in a gunmaker or reliable published article, then subject to that being OK I will then try some (patterns, field use etc.) and see what happens.

My thoughts and needs, exactly.

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21 minutes ago, mick miller said:

I'll keep it there thanks, as a reminder of how we've all been sold down the river in a doomed attempt to defend the indefensible. 

chin up unless we are seen to hold somebody to account the public will never accept a compromise on game shooting because any credibility we had will be finished and that should give everyone a chip 

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20 minutes ago, Penelope said:

My thoughts and needs, exactly.

And mine 👍

just a thought here I’ve got 250 fibre wad steel cartridges 3 inch 32gram number 4 shot 

I’m contemplating taking them to bits and using the components ie powder (Reduced) wad   (shortened ) shot cup and reduced shot and loading it back into a new 2..1/2 case 

thoughts ? 

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On 28/02/2020 at 15:26, rbrowning2 said:

Cannot wait for David basc or Conor basc to come back on hear and explaining this one away, always assuming they still have a job.

“without significant support is IMPOSSIBLE. “ so that’s what the £2 million fighting fund is for R&D for the cartridge industry.

The decision for BASC to join the other rural organisations in issuing the statement on Monday and again on Friday was taken by BASC Council. For more on BASC Council visit https://basc.org.uk/about-us/basc-council/

For the latest information on lead ammunition visit www.basc.org.uk/lead

If any BASC members feel strongly about policy decision making at BASC and consultation with members I would recommend that they attend the next AGM in July.

If anyone wishes to discuss BASC's position on lead ammo with me please direct message me and we can take it from there.

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22 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The decision for BASC to join the other rural organisations in issuing the statement on Monday and again on Friday was taken by BASC Council. For more on BASC Council visit https://basc.org.uk/about-us/basc-council/

For the latest information on lead ammunition visit www.basc.org.uk/lead

If any BASC members feel strongly about policy decision making at BASC and consultation with members I would recommend that they attend the next AGM in July.

If anyone wishes to discuss BASC's position on lead ammo with me please direct message me and we can take it from there.

So, are we to take it from that that BASC did or did not initiate the group statement?

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27 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The decision for BASC to join the other rural organisations in issuing the statement on Monday and again on Friday was taken by BASC Council. For more on BASC Council visit https://basc.org.uk/about-us/basc-council/

For the latest information on lead ammunition visit www.basc.org.uk/lead

If any BASC members feel strongly about policy decision making at BASC and consultation with members I would recommend that they attend the next AGM in July.

If anyone wishes to discuss BASC's position on lead ammo with me please direct message me and we can take it from there.

Conor it may be a little sooner than July their is a petition going for a special AGM look back through the posts and you will find it.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Conor it may be a little sooner than July their is a petition going for a special AGM look back through the posts and you will find it.

 

 

BASC is owned by its members, including me and you. If 1% of members sign up then a Special General Meeting will be feasible. I have outlined this in emails to you and any other BASC members that have contacted me.

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Conor has PM me with the offer to phone him on Monday I have replied as followes:-

“I think rather than discussing on a personal level to each individual member it is time for some honesty and transparency to all members via an announcement on the basc website or via your email distribution list, or a joint statement from all the shooting organisations and GTA.”

Enough of this miss-direction it is time ALL members of ALL shooting organisations were told the truth via a plain English explanation.

 

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5 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Conor has PM me with the offer to phone him on Monday I have replied as followes:-

“I think rather than discussing on a personal level to each individual member it is time for some honesty and transparency to all members via an announcement on the basc website or via your email distribution list, or a joint statement from all the shooting organisations and GTA.”

Enough of this miss-direction it is time ALL members of ALL shooting organisations were told the truth via a plain English explanation.

 

+1

 

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