Lead ban & BASC

[McSpredder]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

"Lead is a useful and common metal that has been used by humans for thousands of years. It is also a very dangerous poison, particularly for children, when it is accidentally inhaled or ingested. ... However, it is still a real problem that continues to poison thousands of people in the U.S. each year." 

..... and that US document goes on to say:  "Lead dust and chips from paint in older homes are one of the biggest sources of exposure. Lead dust can get on children’s toys and hands. When they put their hands or toys in their mouths, they also swallow lead. Other things that can cause lead poisoning are:   Soil & water;   Vinyl, old toys, jewelry, & keys;   Handmade pottery or dishes;   Imported cosmetics & spices."  

UK data suggest that lead in game is far less of a hazard than another very common food additive:

Health problems related to lead in game meat (paper presented at 2015 Oxford Lead Symposium):

• Number of actual patients with health problems attributable to eating game meat – NONE (and it is hard to imagine that they would neglect to report known cases).
• Number of published scientific studies where lead in the blood of children has been related to eating game – NONE (statement repeated in multiple scientific papers).

Health problems related to sugar consumption (NHS data):

• Tooth decay:   43,000 children requiring multiple tooth extractions in hospital,  NHS treatment cost £36 million (2016/17)
• Type 2 diabetes:   3.6 million sufferers, NHS treatment cost £11.7 billion  (2012)

[lancer425]

7 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, i was quoted no more than 1/2 or 3/4 at most choke in a side by side that is not steel proofed, from a leading cartridge seller in UK

Cip say normal steel full is fine , but its still fine with BB etc. i put thousands through full choke fixed choke guns no trouble at all.

I know of several english guns regularly running full choke and factory steel, one a Thomas wild is a 3 inch it runs RC atomic steel and NSI steel for ducks. That gun is perfect.  A 2.5 inch BSA reload steel Chedite case CX2000 B&P24 15/16 oz $ steel. 37 grains of A 381. Its a 1650FPS load . No problem.

I could go on with my own guns some fixed chokes and full choke never seen a problem ever.  Not saying do this, just saying never seen a single problem.

[JohnfromUK]

19 minutes ago, simcgunner said:

One yanks perspective on steel shot.

I think the difference the USA has is that the cartridges are much higher load and pressure.  Over here, pressure is rarely discussed - because under the CIP rules, we have relatively low pressures - or the cartridges are not CIP compliant.  My understanding is that the allowed pressures in the USA under SAMI rules are higher, and more people home load, using higher pressures and shot loads than would be the case in the UK.  Hence many USA shooters are knowledgeable about the pressures in the ammunition they use.

To be used in the UK (and Europe), CIP compliance is required.  This means quite modest pressures (by USA standards), hence the risk of damage is much lower.

[8 shot]

9 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Cip say normal steel full is fine , but its still fine with BB etc. i put thousands through full choke fixed choke guns no trouble at all.

I know of several english guns regularly running full choke and factory steel, one a Thomas wild is a 3 inch it runs RC atomic steel and NSI steel for ducks. That gun is perfect.  A 2.5 inch BSA reload steel Chedite case CX2000 B&P24 15/16 oz $ steel. 37 grains of A 381. Its a 1650FPS load . No problem.

I could go on with my own guns some fixed chokes and full choke never seen a problem ever.  Not saying do this, just saying never seen a single problem.

Just spoken to Browning and they say no more than half choke in my MK60 and only standard steel load there after. 

[lancer425]

5 minutes ago, McSpredder said:

..... and that US document goes on to say:  "Lead dust and chips from paint in older homes are one of the biggest sources of exposure. Lead dust can get on children’s toys and hands. When they put their hands or toys in their mouths, they also swallow lead. Other things that can cause lead poisoning are:   Soil & water;   Vinyl, old toys, jewelry, & keys;   Handmade pottery or dishes;   Imported cosmetics & spices."  

UK data suggest that lead in game is far less of a hazard than another very common food additive:

Health problems related to lead in game meat (paper presented at 2015 Oxford Lead Symposium):

• Number of actual patients with health problems attributable to eating game meat – NONE (and it is hard to imagine that they would neglect to report known cases).
• Number of published scientific studies where lead in the blood of children has been related to eating game – NONE (statement repeated in multiple scientific papers).

Health problems related to sugar consumption (NHS data):

• Tooth decay:   43,000 children requiring multiple tooth extractions in hospital,  NHS treatment cost £36 million (2016/17)
• Type 2 diabetes:   3.6 million sufferers, NHS treatment cost £11.7 billion  (2012)

LOOK . There is no mileage in this argument, we have had it for twenty years in wildfowling both sides of the Atlantic, and LEAD IS STILL TOXIC they want it gone from our world. we can not defend this toxic shot any more.

 Change has to happen its not about the facts any more we are way past that stage decades ago.

  the thing i just can not get my head around is WHY! the latching on to lead shot. ? WHY!.

 I joined American waterfowler forum when steel shot came out. It was supper active in those days as i am sure many here can relate  too.

  There were thread upon thread on how bad steel was and how lead needed to come back, details on ho lowing out duck decoys to hide lead ammo from game wardens. It was really that silly. They just would not let go of it.

  The switch was not easy, we all ruined many guns reaming chokes out, and to no reason other than ill thought out misinformation.   The gun trade hated steel many still do. The horror stories were rife.

  As time went on we learned what was working, read up what the USA was doing, then we started to get RSI wads filltering through and Load data manuals read on AW and DWC forums what to get and use. This proved to be the way forward, it as long been the case that even pigeons were shot with steel i have an outlet for them to a falconer.

The disadvantages of steel are kind of cancelled out by the positives re overall performance, and this is for big tough shy  waterfowl not just game birds.

Steel is not perfect but its really not bad at all in fact its good.

[Dibble]

Anybody know how lead from shot is absorbed into the human body? 

[lancer425]

36 minutes ago, simcgunner said:

One yanks perspective on steel shot. We are seeing an increased amount of classic double shotguns ruined by firing steel shot through them. When looking at guns one must carefully look down the outside barrels and inspect for ring bulges just behind the choke area. on occasion it can break the rib loose but not always. I have not seen a shotguns bore damaged but have seen dozens with ring bulges. the steel shot must leave the bore at higher velocities and being much harder than steel will not compress in the choke as well as the softer metals. I would never fire steel through a gun not proofed for it even if the chokes had been opened to try to keep the bulging from happening. Thankfully wildfowling is the only place that I currently shoot that requires No- Tox Ammunition. I load expensive bismuth shot that performs as well as lead and can practice with lead at clays. I don't mind the extra expense for the few actual shots we take at wild fowl. and actually like the idea of replacing the plastic components with biosafe materials. a blanket lead ban for all shooting would be the death Knell for sportsman. we can buy 2.5 inch Bismuth  low pressure loads from a classic ammunition manufacture (RST ammo) but it is much cheaper to hand load the small amount you actually fire at waterfowl.

Heard it all before, but never really get to see these wrecked guns  . not ever. And have they been shooting typical federal blue box ammo through these guns of some 1750FPS hypersteel loads, you just do not know.

 

[motty]

1 hour ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, mottys right there are plenty of good used side by sides for sale in most RFDs, i would look at one improved and half choke, if this ban on lead and to use steel cartridges i can fore see some RFDs might look at sending to a gunsmith work shop to have barrels opened out before selling on saving a buyer time and trouble, Most RFDs have their contacts in the gun trade  

I wouldn't bother with all that. Plenty of cheap (£100-200) O/Us and SXS around. Use them with whatever choke they have in them.

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Will be a challenge getting 36gm of 4 steel shot in a 28gauge 2.3/4inch cartridge case.

Obviously! But then again, it's a small load gauge. Maybe 18gm steel or such like.

Edited March 2, 2020 by motty

[lancer425]

15 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Just spoken to Browning and they say no more than half choke in my MK60 and only standard steel load there after. 

My .425 waterfowl 3.5 inch has A Briley .705 in the bottom barrel and a Terror .675 in the top barrel. nominal bore size id .732 top and .733 bottom barrel thats  bottom  28 though so just around a 3/4 choke old money. and top.barrel 57 though of choke so that is full pluss another 17 thoughs worth of constriction.  i only run up to BB in that gun about 4.5mm i think. 

No problems in ten years.

[motty]

1 hour ago, 8 shot said:

And what cartridges would you recommend in 5 years time 

I can't see into the future!

36 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think the difference the USA has is that the cartridges are much higher load and pressure.  Over here, pressure is rarely discussed - because under the CIP rules, we have relatively low pressures - or the cartridges are not CIP compliant.  My understanding is that the allowed pressures in the USA under SAMI rules are higher, and more people home load, using higher pressures and shot loads than would be the case in the UK.  Hence many USA shooters are knowledgeable about the pressures in the ammunition they use.

To be used in the UK (and Europe), CIP compliance is required.  This means quite modest pressures (by USA standards), hence the risk of damage is much lower.

Quite possibly. I put USA spec loads in my guns. Still to have an issue in any of mine, regardless of choke of proof.

[motty]

37 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Just spoken to Browning and they say no more than half choke in my MK60 and only standard steel load there after. 

Totally up to you, but I would ignore that advice.

[Old farrier]

8 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

My .425 waterfowl 3.5 inch has A Briley .705 in the bottom barrel and a Terror .675 in the top barrel. nominal bore size id .732 top and .733 bottom barrel thats  bottom  28 though so just around a 3/4 choke old money. and top.barrel 57 though of choke so that is full pluss another 17 thoughs worth of constriction.  i only run up to BB in that gun about 4.5mm i think. 

No problems in ten years.

I’m assuming there external chokes? 
that perform different to fixed choke in guns 

[8 shot]

1 minute ago, motty said:

Totally up to you, but I would ignore that advice.

And what is your qualification to say that 

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, motty said:

I put USA spec loads in my guns.

I have (a long while ago) shot USA (in very hot temperatures in Costa Rica) loads in my Beretta S57 and my colleague used them in his AyA No 1.  Neither gun sustained any damage - which is more than can be said for our shoulders in very thin clothing!

[motty]

Just now, 8 shot said:

And what is your qualification to say that 

No qualification, just experience. The first gun I used a lot of steel through was my Silver pigeon IV. Not steel proofed - I imagine the same proofing as your gun. I have put HP steel through it with extended full chokes. I have then, in subsequent years, put HP steel through a few other fixed full choke non steel proofed guns. All this with no issues. I know many people who do the same.

I would happily put steel through your gun, if it were mine.

 

Would I put steel through a tatty old gun with water thin muzzles? Probably not.

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

I’m assuming there external chokes? 
that perform different to fixed choke in guns 

Not sure i folow that exact line of thinking myself, but i guess a lot of the constriction is going on outside the bore, which is true re the choke thread area on most choke systems anyway. but really if the fixed gun shakes its ribs loose it was not safe anyway. Any single barrel only has the top rib to worry about and again will be brased as many modern guns are anyway. Soldered ribs if sound and ringing loud and true. should be no trouble. Certainly with normal steel.  Remember pressures are the same if a steel load or a lead load both make 7000psi.  Under sami guns will have been through just under 20000 psi  despite the 11500 limit. so safe as houses really.

[Old farrier]

13 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Not sure i folow that exact line of thinking myself, but i guess a lot of the constriction is going on outside the bore, which is true re the choke thread area on most choke systems anyway. but really if the fixed gun shakes its ribs loose it was not safe anyway. Any single barrel only has the top rib to worry about and again will be brased as many modern guns are anyway. Soldered ribs if sound and ringing loud and true. should be no trouble. Certainly with normal steel.  Remember pressures are the same if a steel load or a lead load both make 7000psi.  Under sami guns will have been through just under 20000 psi  despite the 11500 limit. so safe as houses really.

The external choke can flex the part of the barrel that the chokes are screwed into and indeed the start of the start of the brierly terror will be cylinder and the constriction starts on the outside of the gun 

hence the ability to flex without damage to the gun

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

The external choke can flex the part of the barrel that the chokes are screwed into and indeed the start of the start of the brierly terror will be cylinder and the constriction starts on the outside of the gun 

hence the ability to flex without damage to the gun

It effectively becomes a sacrificial part if there is an over-pressure issue!

[Smokersmith]

3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

It effectively becomes a sacrificial part if there is an over-pressure issue!

I'm happier shooting my steel through tight external chokes, than internal or fixed ones for this reason.

To be clear … the pressure we're referring to is that created by the steel being squeezed through the choke, not the ignition end.

[lancer425]

7 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

The external choke can flex the part of the barrel that the chokes are screwed into and indeed the start of the start of the brierly terror will be cylinder and the constriction starts on the outside of the gun 

hence the ability to flex without damage to the gun

But its swings and roundabouts really, the multi chokes are not all in front of the thread the mobil optima crio systems mobil is the worst they are smack on the constriction area with the threads. Not all externals have all choke outside the barrel either5. Not even sure turkey chokes do that.

Threads in the barrel and a muklti choke if anything are a weakness to be tollerated for their versatility rather than a point of praise.

The dedicated long range continental goose guns like the fabarm goose gun had strictly fixed chokes.

[Old farrier]

11 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

It effectively becomes a sacrificial part if there is an over-pressure issue!

Exactly 👍👍👍

so my gun fixed choke gun full and extra full 

do I open the chokes up or have it threaded for multi choke (Flush ) or external chokes ? 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, Old farrier said:

Exactly 👍👍👍

so my gun fixed choke gun full and extra full 

do I open the chokes up or have it threaded for multi choke (Flush ) or external chokes ? 

I would leave it as it is and see what the cartridge manufacturers come up with in the next 5 years.

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Exactly 👍👍👍

so my gun fixed choke gun full and extra full 

do I open the chokes up or have it threaded for multi choke (Flush ) or external chokes ? 

 

I dont i have a full 32 inch auto as do others full choke have no trouble .

[Old farrier]

29 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I would leave it as it is and see what the cartridge manufacturers come up with in the next 5 years.

If I live that long 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Full of the joys of spring I see.