Old farrier Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 Moving forward to the next phase in the voluntary lead and plastic ban what do I or anyone who has a limited ( none) experience with reloding need ? to load a steel cartridge with a fibre wad I assume primer case powder wad shot cup shot crimp or rto to test the cartridge I’m assuming you can get a machine/test barrel (I’m not sure ) which will give a indication of pressure/speed or do I need a chronograph as well? would it be foolish to test fire the first loads in my shotgun? then assuming I’ve exercised du diligence in the loading process And am getting consistent pressure and pattern With a batch of ? Not sure how many I then submit them to a proof house for testing? How does this work? Assuming they pass and I diligently follow the data will this be enough to satisfy the insurance company in the event of a disaster Thanks in advance OF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 I only have experience in reloading handgun ammo, but I’m assuming the process is very similar. There were many many manuals with ‘recipes’ and reloading data available. Does the same not apply to shotgun cartridges? Surely it can’t be a guessing game! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Scully said: I only have experience in reloading handgun ammo, but I’m assuming the process is very similar. There were many many manuals with ‘recipes’ and reloading data available. Does the same not apply to shotgun cartridges? Surely it can’t be a guessing game! As it seems that the manufacturers can’t supply a 2.1/2 inch affordable non lead biodegradable wad cartridges it is a guessing game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 hello, do steel shot cartridges need wads and shot cups together, i have seen cups with combined waddy thingy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Old farrier said: As it seems that the manufacturers can’t supply a 2.1/2 inch affordable non lead biodegradable wad cartridges it is a guessing game Then I’d find data for a standard ( 3” or whatever ) cartridge recipe and reload it to a lesser quantity of powder and shot ( easy enough to do, not everyone wanted to shoot full weight magnum loads ) and take it from there. You’ll need a good set of scales. It’s easy enough to cut down a hand held powder measure once you’ve found the right amount, although single stage reloading is tedious and time consuming. If the shot just trickles from your muzzle then you know you’ve backed off too much! 🙂 Have fun. Edited March 7, 2020 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.C Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 Do you know anyone in your are that loads their own? I'm sure that they will help with recipe and instruction advice etc. I can only speak from experience loading CF but I had an experienced mate who took me under his wing and has helped no end. In fact before I got my own gear and knew what I needed I loaded my 1st 50 rounds using his gear and guidance. I'm sure someone will step forward and offer to help. It's worth a drive just to actually SEE it being done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 13 minutes ago, Mr.C said: Do you know anyone in your are that loads their own? I'm sure that they will help with recipe and instruction advice etc. I can only speak from experience loading CF but I had an experienced mate who took me under his wing and has helped no end. In fact before I got my own gear and knew what I needed I loaded my 1st 50 rounds using his gear and guidance. I'm sure someone will step forward and offer to help. It's worth a drive just to actually SEE it being done. Sadly not I’m afraid maybe there’s a course or something out there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 If i was inclined to test, i would do an array of powder charges. If i was ingenious i would make and or design a wad that can be folded from one sheet of card or material. So the homeloader can order pressed sheets of dense card or even pdp. Fibre colapsable section would be needed too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave at kelton Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 I have loaded for years and have always relied on loading data provided by manufacturers or pals. I have only once submitted to proof testing being nervous about a load provided by a well known expert. Glad I did as they were well over pressure but experience told me something was wrong. Always starting with a basic loading manual is a good bet. i will be spending the summer playing with loads and patterning them. I have no fears testing in a steel proofed gun first. in answer to other queries yes you need card cup wads in addition to the obvious other components. An obturator wad is needed under that and can be felt or cup card. The latter are the hardest thing as I am not aware of anyone supplying them so you need to make your own. If you are handy with a lathe you can probably work that out it simply needs a die that takes a card disk of around an inch and an angled central 12 bore hole that you force it through with a simple punch. I have a kit for 10 bore and can borrow one in 8. I will find another source for 12 bore. I will be using felt obturator wads in the meantime. You can easily use an old rollturnover tool or buy a head for a pillar drill rather than buy an expensive press for a crimp finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Dave at kelton said: I have loaded for years and have always relied on loading data provided by manufacturers or pals. I have only once submitted to proof testing being nervous about a load provided by a well known expert. Glad I did as they were well over pressure but experience told me something was wrong. Always starting with a basic loading manual is a good bet. i will be spending the summer playing with loads and patterning them. I have no fears testing in a steel proofed gun first. in answer to other queries yes you need card cup wads in addition to the obvious other components. An obturator wad is needed under that and can be felt or cup card. The latter are the hardest thing as I am not aware of anyone supplying them so you need to make your own. If you are handy with a lathe you can probably work that out it simply needs a die that takes a card disk of around an inch and an angled central 12 bore hole that you force it through with a simple punch. I have a kit for 10 bore and can borrow one in 8. I will find another source for 12 bore. I will be using felt obturator wads in the meantime. You can easily use an old rollturnover tool or buy a head for a pillar drill rather than buy an expensive press for a crimp finish. Thank you I shall get some loading date appropriate for the powder 👍👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave at kelton Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 21 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Thank you I shall get some loading date appropriate for the powder 👍👍 Most of us use Alliant steel in our wildfowl loads and there are plenty of data on the website but using plastic wads in 2 3/4 cases. If using felt wads they would be a good start as you will get less pressure and can always tone them down a little if concerned. It’s where I will be starting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said: Most of us use Alliant steel in our wildfowl loads and there are plenty of data on the website but using plastic wads in 2 3/4 cases. If using felt wads they would be a good start as you will get less pressure and can always tone them down a little if concerned. It’s where I will be starting. Thank you I don’t really want a heavy long range load as used by Wildfowlers im hoping for something that is useful in the 3o yard bracket for small game birds not sure on shot size? As I would like to eat it after shooting it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave at kelton Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Thank you I don’t really want a heavy long range load as used by Wildfowlers im hoping for something that is useful in the 3o yard bracket for small game birds not sure on shot size? As I would like to eat it after shooting it There is data on the site for Light loads of 7/8 and1oz which will do you. I would be looking at no 4 at 3.1mm shot size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said: There is data on the site for Light loads of 7/8 and1oz which will do you. I would be looking at no 4 at 3.1mm shot size Ok thanks appreciate your input ill put it on my list alliantsteel and number 4 shot (plated) and should I use a buffer as it’s a large shot size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave at kelton Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 37 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Ok thanks appreciate your input ill put it on my list alliantsteel and number 4 shot (plated) and should I use a buffer as it’s a large shot size I wouldn’t bother with buffer steel patterns tightly so I cannot see the benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 14 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said: I wouldn’t bother with buffer steel patterns tightly so I cannot see the benefit. Ok many thanks for your reply 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Old farrier said: Thank you I don’t really want a heavy long range load as used by Wildfowlers im hoping for something that is useful in the 3o yard bracket for small game birds not sure on shot size? As I would like to eat it after shooting it Longshot powder would be another powder for 7/8 or 1oz loads ( shoot/shot) plenty of Geese with them. Personally ( tin hat firmly secured ) I'd be loading either or try both with 6 and 5 shot Steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 Some of these; From Clay and Game this morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 10 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said: Longshot powder would be another powder for 7/8 or 1oz loads ( shoot/shot) plenty of Geese with them. Personally ( tin hat firmly secured ) I'd be loading either or try both with 6 and 5 shot Steel Thanks for the reply I have aliant steel powder or AO 3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Some of these; From Clay and Game this morning Did you slit them or do they come like that? How easy are they to shorten for 2..1/2 inch loads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 (edited) Nigel as long as you have a sharp Stanley knife they are quite easy although time consuming. We cut a 16 bore down by 6mm to become a black powder wad. Did you spot the 10 bore for comparison? Edited March 7, 2020 by TIGHTCHOKE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Nigel as long as you have a sharp Stanley knife they are quite easy although time consuming. We cut a 16 bore down by 6mm to become a black powder wad. Did you spot the 10 bore for comparison? I’m only allowed crayons 😂😂and round nosed scissors 😉 I spotted it I was going to use the bandsaw for trimming them and putting in the slits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 I reckon as long as its sharp it would be better than using a Stanley knife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 On 29/02/2020 at 13:12, JohnfromUK said: The drivers for me are: Must be 2 1/2" compatible (because that is how the guns are chambered) Must be fibre wad (because that is mandated by the landlords who have sheep and cattle and I doubt will be prepared to wait for bio degradeable plastic to degrade). Should be ideally similar in both recoil and striking energy/range to current loads with my less than 1/2 choke guns (mostly improved and quarter). Some range reduction can be tolerated I think what I will need is something like: 28 or 30g of No 4 steel (because No 4 seems to be both suitable with fibre/card wads and have adequate striking energy) Fibre/card type 'enclosing' wad to protect the barrel A little 'common sense' in using at ranges at which it proves capable (this may need a bit of a learning curve) My current understanding is that there are fibre/card wads (don't ask where from, because I don't know, but I have heard that to be the case) that exist to meet this requirement and they are OK with shot sizes 4 and smaller, but larger shot can punch through them. I don't believe any commercial load is yet available. These can be loaded in 2 1/2" cases and within current proof pressures. They are generally thought to be a little more restricted in range, but given some good old common sense, I can live with that. What I don't know is; whether such a load will be made available commercially (but suspect it will because the demand will be there) What the concerns over steel for forestry will be What the concerns over ricochets for shooting in woods will be I am prepared to await developments - some of which I hope will run along the lines above. I will check any proposed new type with a suitable 'authority' as in a gunmaker or reliable published article, then subject to that being OK I will then try some (patterns, field use etc.) and see what happens. You need these. https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-cheddite-65mm-new-cases-pd98 Some of this. Or some other of your choice. https://www.claygame.co.uk/1lb-alliant-steel-pd24 these https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-fibre-shot-cups-34mm-38mm-and-55mm-pd82 these https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-waxed-nitro-cards-pd142 You need a seal really . but op card. some of this. https://www.claygame.co.uk/steel-shot-pd6 one of these or better how deep are your pockets. you could rto but need a drill its ok but . .. get a press. cheap work ok. https://www.claygame.co.uk/lee-load-all-ii-pd385 You need a set of scales but could not find any on that site. No idea how they sell anything on there what an awkward place to navigate i navigated across Mongolia easier than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-fibre-shot-cups-34mm-38mm-and-55mm-pd82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, lancer425 said: You need these. https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-cheddite-65mm-new-cases-pd98 Some of this. Or some other of your choice. https://www.claygame.co.uk/1lb-alliant-steel-pd24 these https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-fibre-shot-cups-34mm-38mm-and-55mm-pd82 these https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-waxed-nitro-cards-pd142 You need a seal really . but op card. some of this. https://www.claygame.co.uk/steel-shot-pd6 one of these or better how deep are your pockets. you could rto but need a drill its ok but . .. get a press. cheap work ok. https://www.claygame.co.uk/lee-load-all-ii-pd385 You need a set of scales but could not find any on that site. No idea how they sell anything on there what an awkward place to navigate i navigated across Mongolia easier than that. Thank you I saw this earlier and phoned them and to be honest it easier to understand than talking to them on the phone they recommend something then when you order it they don’t have it anyway I’ll try again Monday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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