Steel, an advantage

[WalkedUp]

Just curious regarding steel shot, due to its woeful ballistic performance surely the maximum travel distance is reduced? I typically allow 300m for shooting towards boundaries with lead size 5/6/7, any ideas how far the equivalent steel can go? 

[Westley]

It can't go far enough for me  !

[wigeon jim]

I would guess half that distance,.  Jim.

[Ultrastu]

Well 300 yds is in my opinion  a pretty safe distance .

Ive not managed to get pellets much beyond 250 yds and thats with no 5 black gold .a no 6 tends to make 225 yds and no 7.5 around 200 yds.

Obviously a strong  tail wind can push these distances out an extra  50 yds.

I havent tested  shot steel at range but if steel doesnt deform as much as lead in the barrel then maybe it will travel as far .

[kenholland]

I noticed that Geoff garrod had some of his decoys up close to the hide in the eley steel shot pigeon video , maybe to compensate for killing range , just an observation , probably nothing in it .

[wymberley]

No 6 lead with MV of 1350 ft/sec will travel 214 yards.

Like for like steel (which of course is not a  No 6 but a 7ish in real money) will make just 163 yards and

going up the 2 shot sizes to a steel No 4 (0.13") will stretch to 188 yards.

All in calm conditions.

[lancer425]

I would eire on the side of caution myself and keep the safe distance exactly the same as lead. Steel has not good on paper balistics, but in the field other factors come into effect other than pure spacific gravity alone. Higher initial velocity better patterns shorter strings bucket wads  the aerodynamics "ok a moot point but non the less"  and bigger shot sizes generally utilised  in steel, its not  as woeful ballistic ally as it first looks.

 Just my opinion take it or leave it but if a safe shot is a safe shot down to specific gravity of the shot type alone, its highly probable it was never a safe shot in the first place.   Now if we are talking heavier than lead tungsten based shots, then, Yes we need to actually increase safe distances with that shot especially in big sizes.

[WalkedUp]

No.4 steel isn’t too far behind the lead then, may be able to knock 50 metres off and still leave a safety margin if there is no back wind.

[lancer425]

6 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

No.4 steel isn’t too far behind the lead then, may be able to knock 50 metres off and still leave a safety margin if there is no back wind.

i offered my advice and like i said Take it or leave it.

[WalkedUp]

Sorry @lancer425 I replied below @wymberley before it had refreshed to show your comment - will take that on board too 👍

[lancer425]

33 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

Sorry @lancer425 I replied below @wymberley before it had refreshed to show your comment - will take that on board too 👍

[tignme]

Ive shot nothing but steel for about 12 yrs now.Pigeon and duck with an odd invite to the longtails.

Pigeons I shoot a 28 no 7 trap load. duck over ponds a 32 no 4 and the same for pheasants.

My averages have not changed and the distances the same since changeover from lead.

I shoot all my clays with the same trap load in steel with the very odd exception shooting in Fc areas.

This load placed in the right place will kill pigeons out 45 mtrs. I shoot 5/8 and 5/8 chokes for every thing in a 25 yr old Miroku non steel proof.

The internals of the barrels are as shiny as the day they were new.

.

[wymberley]

10 hours ago, tignme said:

Ive shot nothing but steel for about 12 yrs now.Pigeon and duck with an odd invite to the longtails.

Pigeons I shoot a 28 no 7 trap load. duck over ponds a 32 no 4 and the same for pheasants.

My averages have not changed and the distances the same since changeover from lead.

I shoot all my clays with the same trap load in steel with the very odd exception shooting in Fc areas.

This load placed in the right place will kill pigeons out 45 mtrs. I shoot 5/8 and 5/8 chokes for every thing in a 25 yr old Miroku non steel proof.

The internals of the barrels are as shiny as the day they were new.

.

That's some going. I wouldn't even attempt that with the same diameter lead pellets.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Well I don't see it as a problem, looking forward to getting out and testing some when the lockdown is over.

[wymberley]

14 hours ago, lancer425 said:

I would eire on the side of caution myself and keep the safe distance exactly the same as lead. Steel has not good on paper balistics, but in the field other factors come into effect other than pure spacific gravity alone. Higher initial velocity better patterns shorter strings bucket wads  the aerodynamics "ok a moot point but non the less"  and bigger shot sizes generally utilised  in steel, its not  as woeful ballistic ally as it first looks.

 Just my opinion take it or leave it but if a safe shot is a safe shot down to specific gravity of the shot type alone, its highly probable it was never a safe shot in the first place.   Now if we are talking heavier than lead tungsten based shots, then, Yes we need to actually increase safe distances with that shot especially in big sizes.

Think I'd be inclined to leave it, to be honest.

With regard to the OP's question, the first paragraph is totally irrelevant.

Why particularly the larger sized tungsten?  Taking No 7s and No 9s in TSS 18 flavour respectively, how far do you think they would travel having the same MV as above and being reasonably generous with the necessary energy (I do like round figures) at what maximum range (energy only) would you expect to kill a pigeon?

If you were to try these but didn't get on with them - or the price went up - would you revert back - for argument's sake - to the safety distance for similarly sizes lead shot - or even steel for that matter? Consistency would suggest not, perhaps.

 

[lancer425]

I only mentioned large TSS it was just due to its extreme lethality ie your 450 yards "wont be enough" .

  I use TSS and the lighter HWs a fair amount of the time. and 2mm TSS "around 9" is around a 4/5 in performance but with obvious reduced wound channel  charecteristics, but this size TSS is a good passing duck and moderate range goose shot size. But at least we agree the fall out range between lead and steel needs to stay the same .

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

I only mentioned large TSS it was just due to its extreme lethality ie your 450 yards "wont be enough" .

  I use TSS and the lighter HWs a fair amount of the time. and 2mm TSS "around 9" is around a 4/5 in performance but with obvious reduced wound channel  charecteristics, but this size TSS is a good passing duck and moderate range goose shot size. But at least we agree the fall out range between lead and steel needs to stay the same .

Where did I mention the two quoted items? In the context of this thread, one is well out of order and the other is dependent upon circumstances in my view. Consequently, I would appreciate it if you stopped putting words into my mouth.

If the TSS 9 equates roughly to steel 4/5 then that would mean that any reduction in the wound channel effect is academic being offset by improved the penetration offered by the higher level of energy density.

As you're using the TSS you should be able to answer the two questions abouit maximum ranges and maximum effective energy ranges for pigeon

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Where did I mention the two quoted items? In the context of this thread, one is well out of order and the other is dependent upon circumstances in my view. Consequently, I would appreciate it if you stopped putting words into my mouth.

If the TSS 9 equates roughly to steel 4/5 then that would mean that any reduction in the wound channel effect is academic being offset by improved the penetration offered by the higher level of energy density.

As you're using the TSS you should be able to answer the two questions abouit maximum ranges and maximum effective energy ranges for pigeon

Hey! I replied to the bloke, thats all, i did not link you into the Reply to the OP. And anyway i did not see anywhere where it was just you allowed to reply to that topic.

Nowc vi have linked you in the reply directly below so lets run with that.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, wymberley said:

That's some going. I wouldn't even attempt that with the same diameter lead pellets.

The pattern with Lead wpou;ld not be as good with those shot sizes so in field ranges would not be that different. Your quoted post looks about right to me.

[WalkedUp]

All, thank you for the input. Lots of interesting points, let’s put this to bed until we can do some testing. Ideally on flooded fields during a calm day. 

[lancer425]

4 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

All, thank you for the input. Lots of interesting points, let’s put this to bed until we can do some testing. Ideally on flooded fields during a calm day. 

[tignme]

@Ultrastu Please give details of your test on lead shot. What angles were the shot taken.

[Ultrastu]

Angles were changed until maximum range was achived .but to be fair the angle is always around 25 degree .it doesnt matter if you use 30 or 20 degree the max range difference will alter by about 5 yds or so  .and the area covered by the landing pellets will be over 50 yds front to back .as some pellets will be very damaged in the bore and others not .i only use fibre wads so there is no bore protection .a fully cupped plaswad may improve the bc of more of the pellets in the bore .but that wont effect the max distance of the best most areodynamic pellet  compared to the same from a fibre wad  .

[Ultrastu]

What you have to realise about small kinda round lead or steel pellets is that they all have terrible bcs .they act a lot like a badminton shuttle cock .Driving them fast or slow wont make a huge difference to max range like wise the angle doesnt make much difference .

You can hit a shuttle cock as high or as hard as you like it still barely goes out the back of the court  a half harted tap goes almost as far .

This changes when the pellet sizes increase significantly .so no4 and bigger .they get dmaged less in bore and hold energy much better at range .

[Ultrastu]

If your  ever in any doubt (you shouldnt be as a conscientious shooter who has done his home work ) .about the distance your shot may travel with regards boundarys etc  then use a no 7.5  pellet for your pigeon decoying and allow 250 yds in the calm and 300 with a tailwind  .

When i convert to steel i will be repeating my tests so i KNOW  what my carts will achive and then give my self a repectable safey zone ontop  

[tignme]

You don't say weight of shot in your no 5s so I cant compare like for like.

I have in front of me detailed measurement of shot fall out.commissioned for and jointly funded bythe C P S A.

All tests using fixed miroku barrels to a proof house type stand capable of 0 to 90 degrees and to horizontal.

All tests shot over three lines 13 each of 2mm sheet metal 500 x 667 .each sheet had apiezoelectric dectector.

for this I use only 30 gram no 6s lead no 4s steel.

Man 1.85mtr  high with a gun to shoulder at 1.75mtr shot goes 88.5 mtrs and steel no 4s 70.5mtrs.

Change angle to 24 degrees  oh I forgot all shot with a 3/4 choke.  lead 206 mtrs,  steel 191 mtrs.

Your claim at 25 degrees does not compute.

As you well know the more you raise the angle it will far closer to gun.

My pigeon shooting from a hide with decoys set 15 to 40 mtrs with 3 on the perimeter 30 mtrs right and left,one at40mtrs guides me to my range for guaranteed kills if I do it right.

Most peeps I know shoot sitting in hide .I don't I always stand and shoot 95% of woodies over decoys and seldom above 25 degrees. Test, 28 gram no 7s in steel. 184.mtrs

In doing so I know my shot especially in steel aint going anywhere near 200 mtrs.

Theres a lot more to this measurement  detail than this but theres too many people out there not willing to believe the killing power of steel shot.

If we were allowed to have the power of the cartridge altered like in U S A. then attitudes would change overnight.

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What was tour shot falling onto.?