Steel, an advantage

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, tignme said:

You don't say weight of shot in your no 5s so I cant compare like for like.

I have in front of me detailed measurement of shot fall out.commissioned for and jointly funded bythe C P S A.

All tests using fixed miroku barrels to a proof house type stand capable of 0 to 90 degrees and to horizontal.

All tests shot over three lines 13 each of 2mm sheet metal 500 x 667 .each sheet had apiezoelectric dectector.

for this I use only 30 gram no 6s lead no 4s steel.

Man 1.85mtr  high with a gun to shoulder at 1.75mtr shot goes 88.5 mtrs and steel no 4s 70.5mtrs.

Change angle to 24 degrees  oh I forgot all shot with a 3/4 choke.  lead 206 mtrs,  steel 191 mtrs.

Your claim at 25 degrees does not compute.

As you well know the more you raise the angle it will far closer to gun.

My pigeon shooting from a hide with decoys set 15 to 40 mtrs with 3 on the perimeter 30 mtrs right and left,one at40mtrs guides me to my range for guaranteed kills if I do it right.

Most peeps I know shoot sitting in hide .I don't I always stand and shoot 95% of woodies over decoys and seldom above 25 degrees. Test, 28 gram no 7s in steel. 184.mtrs

In doing so I know my shot especially in steel aint going anywhere near 200 mtrs.

Theres a lot more to this measurement  detail than this but theres too many people out there not willing to believe the killing power of steel shot.

If we were allowed to have the power of the cartridge altered like in U S A. then attitudes would change overnight.

--------------------------------------------------

What was tour shot falling onto.?

Although my figures obtained earlier (and which agree very nicely with yours) gave angles of 19 and 22 degrees, I did other examples and dependent upon load and velocity 25 degrees is on the cards.

However, although we are in agreement with our programmes regarding the given maximum ranges, there does appear to be a major discrepency regarding the pellet energy for 2.5mm steel shot. If you are using these for pigeon and killing cleanly at 45 metres, which trap load are you using? I ask because the only one I can find where "trap" is mentioned has a MV of 1350 ft/sec which just about manages 0.4 ftlbs at the 45 metres - about half of the recognised minimum level necessary.

[tignme]

At the moment my RFd only does pegoara in 28 gram 7s.

I have purchased a pile of rejects that are Clever mirage which is what I used to use.

I shot the clay target circuit here in Scotland for 25 yrs or so.

I was in the camp for changing chokes at every stand, the same camp preferred fast cartridges.

Five yrs buying the fastest Hull sovereign available at a premium I came to the conclusion my averages have not changed.

My best friend was always a target or more ahead of me although we both shot the same shell.

I changed to mirage bog standard cheapest load.

Guess what my averages even today stayed the same.

I know you are the scientific sort of guy but for me speed doesn't kill, place the shot in the right place and mark a kill.

Nobody and I know several of the top Sporting shooters in Scotland can tell the difference between 1000 and 1350 ft per second.

I use tight chokes for most shooting and steel. Ive shot nearly all Scottish members clay shoots using my bog standard 28 no 7s and from memory ive managed a first and mainly second.

cartridges are not the main factor, gunfit and (bighead) capability place the shot in the right place.

 

 

 

[wymberley]

No, it doesn't, but assuming there is sufficient (speed), it's pattern that kills. Making the necessary allowances as we're talking shotguns, older folk will recognise the link between the 1000 and 1350 ft/sec. There's no need for more than this.

[lancer425]

3 hours ago, wymberley said:

No, it doesn't, but assuming there is sufficient (speed), it's pattern that kills. Making the necessary allowances as we're talking shotguns, older folk will recognise the link between the 1000 and 1350 ft/sec. There's no need for more than this.

Patterns dont kill pellets kill, and if they are in a good effective pattern then yes it is a good thing.

 As for 1000 too 1350fps and there being no need for any more than this. 

   Not really the whole story, the fact that loads which start out faster loose more speed proportionately is true. But it is also true that anything that starts out faster is still faster on terminal velocity  in shotgun ranges than a slower load.

 Now if that has any worthwhile advantage in the FT/LBS on target is dependent on pellet size mass and the aforesaid velocity.

   Rather than looking at the muzzle velocity its perhaps a better guide for performance to look at keeping a terminal velocity of 600or more FPS on target . And typicaly if using an appropriate sized pellet of whatever shot your using at that range and at that speed. the pellet lethality in a ent pattern for that range will do the job just fine.

 You need as much speed as you can get wile delivering good usable patterns at the range your pellets will be still doing 600plus FPS that will work if the shooter does his bit. .

 

[wymberley]

52 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Patterns dont kill pellets kill, and if they are in a good effective pattern then yes it is a good thing.

 As for 1000 too 1350fps and there being no need for any more than this. 

   Not really the whole story, the fact that loads which start out faster loose more speed proportionately is true. But it is also true that anything that starts out faster is still faster on terminal velocity  in shotgun ranges than a slower load.

 Now if that has any worthwhile advantage in the FT/LBS on target is dependent on pellet size mass and the aforesaid velocity.

   Rather than looking at the muzzle velocity its perhaps a better guide for performance to look at keeping a terminal velocity of 600or more FPS on target . And typicaly if using an appropriate sized pellet of whatever shot your using at that range and at that speed. the pellet lethality in a ent pattern for that range will do the job just fine.

 You need as much speed as you can get wile delivering good usable patterns at the range your pellets will be still doing 600plus FPS that will work if the shooter does his bit. .

 

You've been reading, haven't you? Shame you missed the saying which is now virtually set in stone and is a genuine piece of shooting lore. Just two words - "pattern kills" -  says it all. Still, anyone who repeats, "at this moment in time" often enough instead of 'now or 'currently' is bound to use loads of extra and unnecessary letters.

Perhaps you could explain the link and while you're at it, also, possibly, the reasoning behind the 600

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

You've been reading, haven't you? Shame you missed the saying which is now virtually set in stone and is a genuine piece of shooting lore. Just two words - "pattern kills" -  says it all. Still, anyone who repeats, "at this moment in time" often enough instead of 'now or 'currently' is bound to use loads of extra and unnecessary letters.

Perhaps you could explain the link and while you're at it, also, possibly, the reasoning behind the 600

No not been reading anything certainly not recently. the 600fps rule is one which has been bandied about by many and various over the years from brister brezney and into the internet days by the likes of Joe spinone Cliff de stevens and Ned svalyard to name just a few. All good sources of info in their time sadly many of them are no longer with us, but their input some of it still out there is good reading.

  The Point i want to re-enforce is that velocity plays its part even if its just keeping the terminal speed desired in the area of efficiency. Pattern and more importantly maintaining suitable pattern is the key to good perforce with regards lethality.

 

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, lancer425 said:

No not been reading anything certainly not recently. the 600fps rule is one which has been bandied about by many and various over the years from brister brezney and into the internet days by the likes of Joe spinone Cliff de stevens and Ned svalyard to name just a few. All good sources of info in their time sadly many of them are no longer with us, but their input some of it still out there is good reading.

  The Point i want to re-enforce is that velocity plays its part even if its just keeping the terminal speed desired in the area of efficiency. Pattern and more importantly maintaining suitable pattern is the key to good perforce with regards lethality.

 

As energy plays no part in penetration I would have thought that velocity as the key player in this respect merited a little more consideration and/or credit.

[Ultrastu]

How much a pellet or shot penetrates is governed by a combination of shape ,mass and velocity .

A projectile that is heavy and areodynamic and is a good penetrator will drive to different depths depending on the target  velocity  .

Conversely  a projectile that is lighter and has a poor shape (think hollow point bullets) can actually penetrate less with more velocity  hmr is a great example of this .So a no6 pellet is very small and light going pretty fast initially but losing speed rapidly  .id say that this pellet is a poor penetrator of flesh 500 600 700 fps at the bird  i doubt makes much difference to penetration depth on a heavy bird  .

What will kill this bird is 25 pellets hitting it instead of 4  .

Im in the pattern kills camp .yeah obviously  there will come a point where even if you hit a bird with 25 pellets but they are at 80 yds and have virtually zero velocity left they wont kill it.

The opposite of this is hitting a bird at 20 yds using a cylinder choke and no5 pellets with only 3 strikes .even if those pellets had say 5 fpe each its not enough to kill the bird  (unless you fluke a head or neck shot ) .I can hit a pigeon in the wrong place with a single 30 fpe pellet and it wont drop .

You have to overwhelm the bird with small multiple hits of enough energy .

That can be as low as 2 fpe each . 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

43 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

How much a pellet or shot penetrates is governed by a combination of shape ,mass and velocity .

A projectile that is heavy and areodynamic and is a good penetrator will drive to different depths depending on the target  velocity  .

Conversely  a projectile that is lighter and has a poor shape (think hollow point bullets) can actually penetrate less with more velocity  hmr is a great example of this .So a no6 pellet is very small and light going pretty fast initially but losing speed rapidly  .id say that this pellet is a poor penetrator of flesh 500 600 700 fps at the bird  i doubt makes much difference to penetration depth on a heavy bird  .

What will kill this bird is 25 pellets hitting it instead of 4  .

Im in the pattern kills camp .yeah obviously  there will come a point where even if you hit a bird with 25 pellets but they are at 80 yds and have virtually zero velocity left they wont kill it.

The opposite of this is hitting a bird at 20 yds using a cylinder choke and no5 pellets with only 3 strikes .even if those pellets had say 5 fpe each its not enough to kill the bird  (unless you fluke a head or neck shot ) .I can hit a pigeon in the wrong place with a single 30 fpe pellet and it wont drop .

You have to overwhelm the bird with small multiple hits of enough energy .

That can be as low as 2 fpe each . 

As we are chatting about shotguns would it be fair to accept that the pellets would be spherical?

[Ultrastu]

Mostly spherical .with a few flats spots yes .which isnt a bad shape for penetration granted ,but not the best either .its the extreemly light weight  that mainly hinders penetration .

[Terry2016]

In theory steel will travel further if going the same speed or faster than lead with a tail wind. 

The reason for this is simple, it is lighter meaning gravity has less effect and that wind will push it further. 

If your concern is fallout the you should allow the same range as lead if not more. 

This does not mean steel shot will be carrying sufficient energy to do damage at these ranges. ( ballistics ) 

 

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, Terry2016 said:

In theory steel will travel further if going the same speed or faster than lead with a tail wind. 

The reason for this is simple, it is lighter meaning gravity has less effect and that wind will push it further. 

If your concern is fallout the you should allow the same range as lead if not more. 

This does not mean steel shot will be carrying sufficient energy to do damage at these ranges. ( ballistics ) 

 

Unfortunately, my programme for maximum range will not permit wind effect variation. But at 100 yards a lead No 6 and the generally accepted 'go up two shot sizes' steel No 4 having the same MV 2.5 (yards) 1300 (ft/sec) (all Imperial for clarity) will both have the their velocity at that range increased by 96 ft/sec in a 40 mph tail wind with the lead still 54 ft/sec faster. Also, with regards gravity, the maximum vertical fire respectively as above is 595 and 539 ft. As ever, shotguns so all figures 'ish'.

[Terry2016]

11 hours ago, wymberley said:

Unfortunately, my programme for maximum range will not permit wind effect variation. But at 100 yards a lead No 6 and the generally accepted 'go up two shot sizes' steel No 4 having the same MV 2.5 (yards) 1300 (ft/sec) (all Imperial for clarity) will both have the their velocity at that range increased by 96 ft/sec in a 40 mph tail wind with the lead still 54 ft/sec faster. Also, with regards gravity, the maximum vertical fire respectively as above is 595 and 539 ft. As ever, shotguns so all figures 'ish'.

ahh, yes but you have increased the shot size to increase the weight to match lead..  as per my post if you use the same size shot the lighter will be faster and travel further on the wind..

 

all very interesting..

Edited April 8, 2020 by Terry2016

[Guest cookoff013]

here is my tuppence, 

we`ll end up shooting bigger shot. regardless i think we`ll endup just accepting the lead distances for shot travel because its further.

its cheaper and easyer to be ignorant of the right data.

sadly

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, Terry2016 said:

ahh, yes but you have increased the shot size to increase the weight to match lead..  as per my post if you use the same size shot the lighter will be faster and travel further on the wind..

 

all very interesting..

Terry,

Guilty as charged, but if you look back through the thread I was really posting for the benefit of the OP. It takes but a minute so ran it again using 0.102" (UK 6) steel shot. As per, the steel is 127 slower and the vertical range reduced to 531. Just to compound matters, the pellet drop for the lead at 100 is 42" and for the steel is 80 so no matter what, the steel will not carry as far as the lead.

Agree with Cookoff, you will and for the reasons given but that truth doesn't answer the OP's question.

[lancer425]

Shotgunning today is massively complex, the fact in soft Lead days every individual barrel behaved differently"still do" , made shotguns fascinating to me back then.

  Add Multichokes that was a game changer, and again when wadding improved buffering them pattern driver "Bucket" wads. All changed things. Then come steel and bismuth ITM then hevi shot power shot / HW&TSS . The variables now are enormous.

Now when we start to look at how the different shot types behave regarding pattern quality shot string and how the density effects pressures re the internal ballistics and when coupled with modern more progressive powders and , the effect hight bricance in primers even base wad profile and design impact of the internal ballistics its verging on endless variations.

Even the good old choke which was never anything but a fickle mistress, evolved and the super tight way over full steel and tungsten waterfowl turkey and to some lesser extent the big parallel profile predator chokes from the states have again created more variables in an already complex world.

  So trying to bring all this to bear within the context of the original post regarding safe max fall out is very difficult to accurately assess and certainly way beyond the scope of any programe. Toastys KPY will give density variables but these are simply not enough given the huge varriations i just touched on.

I think leave steel where you would have Lead re max fallout range. Steel in mass is less but when you add the massive amount of variables with it its range needs to be considered the same as lead in my opinion.

[motty]

17 hours ago, Terry2016 said:

In theory steel will travel further if going the same speed or faster than lead with a tail wind. 

The reason for this is simple, it is lighter meaning gravity has less effect and that wind will push it further. 

If your concern is fallout the you should allow the same range as lead if not more. 

This does not mean steel shot will be carrying sufficient energy to do damage at these ranges. ( ballistics ) 

 

Steel will not carry as far as lead. The momentum will give out much faster.

[wymberley]

54 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Shotgunning today is massively complex, the fact in soft Lead days every individual barrel behaved differently"still do" , made shotguns fascinating to me back then.

  Add Multichokes that was a game changer, and again when wadding improved buffering them pattern driver "Bucket" wads. All changed things. Then come steel and bismuth ITM then hevi shot power shot / HW&TSS . The variables now are enormous.

Now when we start to look at how the different shot types behave regarding pattern quality shot string and how the density effects pressures re the internal ballistics and when coupled with modern more progressive powders and , the effect hight bricance in primers even base wad profile and design impact of the internal ballistics its verging on endless variations.

Even the good old choke which was never anything but a fickle mistress, evolved and the super tight way over full steel and tungsten waterfowl turkey and to some lesser extent the big parallel profile predator chokes from the states have again created more variables in an already complex world.

  So trying to bring all this to bear within the context of the original post regarding safe max fall out is very difficult to accurately assess and certainly way beyond the scope of any programe. Toastys KPY will give density variables but these are simply not enough given the huge varriations i just touched on.

I think leave steel where you would have Lead re max fallout range. Steel in mass is less but when you add the massive amount of variables with it its range needs to be considered the same as lead in my opinion.

Good idea; having no need to go up three lead shot sizes would be handy as everything would then be far less complex.

I wonder how long it took before it was realised that preparing a table (tablet I suppose really then) to calculate the distance in cubits and its velocity required for the Mk 1 trebuchet to throw a dead cow weighing 50 talents into the enemy's water supply would increase the rate of fire and its accuracy. We've come a long way since then but it's worth remembering that most ballistic information is empirical in nature and the programmes derived from that information. Yep, they'll never be spot on - especially when it comes to the scattergun - but dismissing them out of hand would be a retrograde step. It's better to be in the ballpark than wondering which way to go when you come out of the station. It's certainly helpful if one can back up an opinion with some facts and figures as it gives the reader an element of confidence that what he's seeing may well be valid. Instead, that is, of a load of obvious statements which have more wriggle than my bait tin.

[tignme]

Some people om here need to get out a lot more.

[Terry2016]

4 hours ago, wymberley said:

Terry,

Guilty as charged, but if you look back through the thread I was really posting for the benefit of the OP. It takes but a minute so ran it again using 0.102" (UK 6) steel shot. As per, the steel is 127 slower and the vertical range reduced to 531. Just to compound matters, the pellet drop for the lead at 100 is 42" and for the steel is 80 so no matter what, the steel will not carry as far as the lead.

Agree with Cookoff, you will and for the reasons given but that truth doesn't answer the OP's question.

That is interesting and defies logic. if something is heavier propelled at the same speed it should drop sooner.  it does with bullets.

Equally the lighter the bullet the more it is effected by wind. 

What are you using to calculate this data?

 

[Terry2016]

3 hours ago, motty said:

Steel will not carry as far as lead. The momentum will give out much faster.

Hi Motty,

i understand that logic.  do you think the extra weight of lead will carry it further than the lightness of steel ? even with a tail wind? 

I shoot a lot of steel have no issue with it and know mine and its capabilities ( it out performs me! ) 

BW 

 

[lancer425]

3 hours ago, wymberley said:

Good idea; having no need to go up three lead shot sizes would be handy as everything would then be far less complex.

I wonder how long it took before it was realised that preparing a table (tablet I suppose really then) to calculate the distance in cubits and its velocity required for the Mk 1 trebuchet to throw a dead cow weighing 50 talents into the enemy's water supply would increase the rate of fire and its accuracy. We've come a long way since then but it's worth remembering that most ballistic information is empirical in nature and the programmes derived from that information. Yep, they'll never be spot on - especially when it comes to the scattergun - but dismissing them out of hand would be a retrograde step. It's better to be in the ballpark than wondering which way to go when you come out of the station. It's certainly helpful if one can back up an opinion with some facts and figures as it gives the reader an element of confidence that what he's seeing may well be valid. Instead, that is, of a load of obvious statements which have more wriggle than my bait tin.

But where do you start? What aspect? Its not just one thing or another? Ill explain anything, i am no word smith but i know how variable seemingly the same thing in shot gunning can be.

  Anything worked out by maths and ballistics programs like ED Lawreys windows 95 program or Toastys KPY. Are good for initial assessment, but its calculated. and downrange chronograph actual pellets is very difficult certainly for the layman.

I mean the typical plaswad incorporated in steel ammo etc, can make range of ultimate shot fall very different, stiffer wads or wad slitting length or techneque can change when shot gets free of the wad, and why some wads are found furrther away than others, sometimes wads can be in the pattern sheets and not just at  the very close patterns. RSI wads with the ribbed design will not flex in the exact same way at all velocities. Its Well. kind of infinite the variables that can change how a shot pattern behaves and this can and will affect its ultimate fall. Obvious ok but absolutely relative.

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, tignme said:

Some people om here need to get out a lot more.

Are you sure that's a good idea?

[Ultrastu]

23 hours ago, Terry2016 said:

In theory steel will travel further if going the same speed or faster than lead with a tail wind. 

The reason for this is simple, it is lighter meaning gravity has less effect and that wind will push it further. 

If your concern is fallout the you should allow the same range as lead if not more. 

This does not mean steel shot will be carrying sufficient energy to do damage at these ranges. ( ballistics ) 

 

Sorry terry mate but you have got that totally worng .the lead will always travel further than steel given that they are the same shape and size as the lead is denser than steel and will retain its energy better .the wind direction isnt relevant .. let me explain .

Cartridge muzzle velocity is say 1300 fps thats a speed of 885 mph so as the shot is fired into sill  air the air resistance is 100 % .for the air resistance to be 0 % we would need a rear air velocity of 885 mph  .now we are never gonna see 885 mph wind .

So a 70 mph wind is a very strong wind . (Hard to standup in .) This is the same as 100 fps  .your pellet isnt going to drop to less than 100 fps until its nearly on the ground at max range  .so from this we can say that any tail wind would NEVER actually push on the rear of the pellet . (Like a boat sail ) .the pellet will ALWAYS  have air resistance acting on it from the front  as the pellet is ALWAYS traveling faster than the air or wind in any direction that it may travel .now granted a tail wind will reduce the resultant head wind /air resistance acting on the front of the pellet .this reduces air  resistance will allow the pellet to travel some what further than in still air or in an actual head wind  .but this applies to lead and steel equally ..

The poorer sectional density of steel compared to lead (all else being equal  like size and shape ) means the steel will ALWAYS  travel  less distance than lead ..

 

The notion of lighter  weight  pellet somehow floating on the wind  is absurd .

Sorry  .physics doesnt agree .

Sincerely stuart .

[Guest cookoff013]

For once we agree.

Even same weight of pellet steel will loose out

#6lead vs #4 steel. The lead will still go further.