Even A Blind Squirrel Sometimes Finds A Nut

[The Heron]

3 hours ago, DOLLSEYES said:

Also don't forget he sued the NHS in 2017.

Yes he threw his toys out of his pram because he was not awarded a large nhs contract 

[treetree]

And not forgetting the East Coast rail franchise contract that they walked away from, rather than stump up the £2 billion they promised the tax payer for the franchise

 

 

[AVB]

8 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Whilst I get the ideology, I hear plenty self-employed and small business owners justifying their "tax reduction measures" by citing the fact that big business and the very privileged also avoid taxes. If big business and the privileged are brought to order will the self-employed and small business owners fall in-line or find another justification for putting themselves first?

I will still try to reduce my tax liability to around 20% which is the rate I feel comfortable paying. Nothing to do with what ‘big businesses’ do.  

[Raja Clavata]

10 hours ago, AVB said:

I will still try to reduce my tax liability to around 20% which is the rate I feel comfortable paying. Nothing to do with what ‘big businesses’ do.  

 A man of integrity 👍

I'd feel a lot more comfortable if mine was anywhere near that figure too 🙂 

I think it's human nature to try to limit tax liability, be it personal, small business or large corporate.

[panoma1]

13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

 A man of integrity 👍

I'd feel a lot more comfortable if mine was anywhere near that figure too 🙂 

I think it's human nature to try to limit tax liability, be it personal, small business or large corporate.

And it’s the government job, on behalf of the country, to close tax avoidance measures/loopholes and ensure everyone and every business pays the amount of tax due, appropriate to their level of income!

[Raja Clavata]

20 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

And it’s the government job, on behalf of the country, to close tax avoidance measures/loopholes and ensure everyone and every business pays the amount of tax due, appropriate to their level of income!

Agreed. The issue with big corporations of course is that they can choose to move their complete operation offshore, so unless it's a globally coordinated crack-down on tax avoidance they are just moving the issue around.

Interestingly, it's still not clear to me if the UK Government do still have an agenda on making the UK a tax haven, I can't imagine that would align with what appear to be your ideologies on the distribution of wealth - but that's for another thread / day.

Personally, I have high confidence that the Government will do what's best for UK PLC with respect to the VA bailout.

[treetree]

Motorboating enthusiast Richard Branson is playing a particularly idiosyncratic game of Monopoly. He would like to mortgage his private Caribbean island. In return, you, the taxpayer, have to buy him Mayfair and Park Lane, all the greens, all the yellows, all the reds, and stick a hotel on every one of them. Also, if Richard lands on Super Tax or Income Tax he doesn’t pay them. And if he gets the Community Chest saying “pay hospital fees”, he refuses and sues the hospital. The only bright side is that he no longer operates out of any of the stations.

Pretty much sums it up  taken from today's Guardian

[12gauge82]

7 minutes ago, treetree said:

Motorboating enthusiast Richard Branson is playing a particularly idiosyncratic game of Monopoly. He would like to mortgage his private Caribbean island. In return, you, the taxpayer, have to buy him Mayfair and Park Lane, all the greens, all the yellows, all the reds, and stick a hotel on every one of them. Also, if Richard lands on Super Tax or Income Tax he doesn’t pay them. And if he gets the Community Chest saying “pay hospital fees”, he refuses and sues the hospital. The only bright side is that he no longer operates out of any of the stations.

Pretty much sums it up  taken from today's Guardian

😂😂😂Nice! 👍

[Danger-Mouse]

2 hours ago, treetree said:

Motorboating enthusiast Richard Branson is playing a particularly idiosyncratic game of Monopoly. He would like to mortgage his private Caribbean island. In return, you, the taxpayer, have to buy him Mayfair and Park Lane, all the greens, all the yellows, all the reds, and stick a hotel on every one of them. Also, if Richard lands on Super Tax or Income Tax he doesn’t pay them. And if he gets the Community Chest saying “pay hospital fees”, he refuses and sues the hospital. The only bright side is that he no longer operates out of any of the stations.

Pretty much sums it up  taken from today's Guardian

Goddamn it! First I have to agree with an Abbott tweet and now I have to like something The Guardian published. The world's gone mad I tell you!

[12gauge82]

22 minutes ago, Mr_Nobody said:

Goddamn it! First I have to agree with an Abbott tweet and now I have to like something The Guardian published. The world's gone mad I tell you!

I think people are starting to cotton on that what's needed is a party no longer split between left and right, there are much more important divisions in society that for too long, like a magicians slight of hand, have gone unnoticed.

[old man]

6 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think people are starting to cotton on that what's needed is a party no longer split between left and right, there are much more important divisions in society that for too long, like a magicians slight of hand, have gone unnoticed.

Maybe "pie in da sky?" Having experienced our poliicos here for years, they and their cohorts always win?

Please show me a poor one?

The current convenient diversion being climate change?

[treetree]

I think politicians should now be looked at through the lens of competence / incompetence. As already mentioned, this polarisation of left / right has meant we have been all to ready to forgive in the politicians on 'our' side, that which we would excoriate if one on the 'other's lot did the same.

The autopsy over the handling of Corona virus will be a good test to see how ready we are to let go of partisan default settings and judge our politicians on the competence of their actions. Part of this will be the acceptance that scrutiny and criticism from the other side is necessary and essential (where justified) and should not be dismissed as political point scoring.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, treetree said:

I think politicians should now be looked at through the lens of competence / incompetence. As already mentioned, this polarisation of left / right has meant we have been all to ready to forgive in the politicians on 'our' side, that which we would excoriate if one on the 'other's lot did the same.

The autopsy over the handling of Corona virus will be a good test to see how ready we are to let go of partisan default settings and judge our politicians on the competence of their actions. Part of this will be the acceptance that scrutiny and criticism from the other side is necessary and essential (where justified) and should not be dismissed as political point scoring.

100% 👍

[grrclark]

5 hours ago, treetree said:

Motorboating enthusiast Richard Branson is playing a particularly idiosyncratic game of Monopoly. He would like to mortgage his private Caribbean island. In return, you, the taxpayer, have to buy him Mayfair and Park Lane, all the greens, all the yellows, all the reds, and stick a hotel on every one of them. Also, if Richard lands on Super Tax or Income Tax he doesn’t pay them. And if he gets the Community Chest saying “pay hospital fees”, he refuses and sues the hospital. The only bright side is that he no longer operates out of any of the stations.

Pretty much sums it up  taken from today's Guardian

It doesn't sum it up at all though, that's the problem.  It's a trite example to appeal to the hard of thinking.

[12gauge82]

44 minutes ago, grrclark said:

It doesn't sum it up at all though, that's the problem.  It's a trite example to appeal to the hard of thinking.

Maybe not, but it gets the point across that he's a horrendous human being that cares for very little, other than making money for himself.

[grrclark]

6 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Maybe not, but it gets the point across that he's a horrendous human being that cares for very little, other than making money for himself.

And in doing so has genuinely created jobs and wealth for tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people as you go through the supply chain.

Give me 100 odious characters like Branson over 10 million whining people who wait for the smart people to do the thinking for them, yet scream how unfair the world is.

[treetree]

40 minutes ago, grrclark said:

And in doing so has genuinely created jobs and wealth for tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people as you go through the supply chain.

Give me 100 odious characters like Branson over 10 million whining people who wait for the smart people to do the thinking for them, yet scream how unfair the world is.

Then go to a commercial lender, or ask the (mainly foreign) shareholders raise it. What's that? They wont put more money into a loss making enterprise with a net debt of $3.2bn and owns very few of its planes?

I'm also not sure I know many of the 10million whining people screaming how unfair the world is. I know plenty of hardworking people screaming how unfair the world is. And when they see a man who has paid no uk tax for many years, owns a space travel company, is worth £4bn (albeit only £600m lying round in cash) ask for a taxpayer bail out from the luxury of his tropical island, well you can kind of see where they are coming from.

 

[12gauge82]

30 minutes ago, treetree said:

Then go to a commercial lender, or ask the (mainly foreign) shareholders raise it. What's that? They wont put more money into a loss making enterprise with a net debt of $3.2bn and owns very few of its planes?

I'm also not sure I know many of the 10million whining people screaming how unfair the world is. I know plenty of hardworking people screaming how unfair the world is. And when they see a man who has paid no uk tax for many years, owns a space travel company, is worth £4bn (albeit only £600m lying round in cash) ask for a taxpayer bail out from the luxury of his tropical island, well you can kind of see where they are coming from.

 

Excellent post. You beat me to it 👍

[grrclark]

35 minutes ago, treetree said:

Then go to a commercial lender, or ask the (mainly foreign) shareholders raise it. What's that? They wont put more money into a loss making enterprise with a net debt of $3.2bn and owns very few of its planes?

I'm also not sure I know many of the 10million whining people screaming how unfair the world is. I know plenty of hardworking people screaming how unfair the world is. And when they see a man who has paid no uk tax for many years, owns a space travel company, is worth £4bn (albeit only £600m lying round in cash) ask for a taxpayer bail out from the luxury of his tropical island, well you can kind of see where they are coming from.

 

Just for the record I didn't actually defend his approach or his request for a state loan, just stated the Guardian comment was twaddle, which it is.  He is also a genuine wealth creator of which i think we could do with more of.

Nothing more or less than that really.

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, grrclark said:

Just for the record I didn't actually defend his approach or his request for a state loan, just stated the Guardian comment was twaddle, which it is.  He is also a genuine wealth creator of which i think we could do with more of.

Nothing more or less than that really.

You can wish for more people like him, the rest of us can just be greatful there's not.

[grrclark]

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

You can wish for more people like him, the rest of us can just be greatful there's not.

But who will you work for if the wealth creators are not there?

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, grrclark said:

But who will you work for if the wealth creators are not there?

Who said I work for anyone and am not a so called "wealth creator" myself?

I like to think it's employees who are the real "wealth creators"!

[Mice!]

This did make me laugh when it got sent earlier. 

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I like to think it's employees who are the real "wealth creators"!

Not really,  most employees are just earning a wage.

[12gauge82]

28 minutes ago, Mice! said:

This did make me laugh when it got sent earlier. 

Not really,  most employees are just earning a wage.

🤣🤣🤣 

[JohnfromUK]

21 hours ago, panoma1 said:

And it’s the government job, on behalf of the country, to close tax avoidance measures/loopholes and ensure everyone and every business pays the amount of tax due, appropriate to their level of income!

/\  This.

Politicians set policy.  Both left and right have promoted closing loopholes and reducing evasion.  Left and right have different ideas about how to do this, but neither wants loopholes and both want to eliminate evasion.

Translating policy into reality is done Parliament passing laws which are written (to policy set by politicians) by the 'machinery of government' - this being non elected staff, such as civil servants and their paid advisers.

Implementing, policing and operating those laws is also done by the 'machinery of government' in HMRC, and the CPS an justice system.

That (simplistically) is how it should work.

People like Branson, Green, Beckham etc., only exploit loopholes and poorly defined laws (by using expensive lawyers and accountants) because the loopholes are there.  Our tax laws are far from clear or watertight - and these people are prepared to pay large fees to clever lawyers and accountants to basically duck their responsibilities to society.  They do it because they are plain greedy - and as unpleasant as that may be - it is not a crime.

In my view the real problem is rooted in the fiendishly complex and hopelessly inept tax system (UK and internationally) that is full oh loophole and impossible to interpret without constant, complex and highly expensive legal challenge - a path only open to the very rich.