Steel Cartridges for Pigeons

[motty]

3 hours ago, PPP said:

Agreed, plenty of offdayes here but for once my issue wasn't missing it was hitting and then having to run after the flipping things or watching them flinch and carry on, i was using the 5s (7 or 8 equivalent in lead) and I was flighting rather than decoying so i guess maybe too far for the cartridge, i think they do a 3, maybe ill try those.  

The Gamebore did knock down better (3s) but the shot doesn't seem to dump energy in the bird and goes straight through meaning they 'bleed out' rather than die the same as lead, i guess just something to get used to... the meat was pretty trashed though..

I don't know how many times I have heard the old myth "steel goes straight through, so they fly off!"

If a few steel pellets go through the front end of a pigeon, the vitals will get pierced, resulting in a very swift death. Birds that fly off are either too far, not hit squarely, or the choke needs tightening (or all of those).

[PPP]

41 minutes ago, motty said:

I don't know how many times I have heard the old myth "steel goes straight through, so they fly off!"

If a few steel pellets go through the front end of a pigeon, the vitals will get pierced, resulting in a very swift death. Birds that fly off are either too far, not hit squarely, or the choke needs tightening (or all of those).

Only a couple carried on, my big concern is that birds hit hard take longer to die, certainly not dead in the air ... also the meat was fubarred as the steel shreds as it passes through And doesn’t deform and dump energy.  There is clearly less energy dumped in the bird, they still die though eventually... just less humane and more food waste... like I said looks like we’ll have to get used to it. 

[lancer425]

10 minutes ago, PPP said:

Only a couple carried on, my big concern is that birds hit hard take longer to die, certainly not dead in the air ... also the meat was fubarred as the steel shreds as it passes through And doesn’t deform and dump energy.  There is clearly less energy dumped in the bird, they still die though eventually... just less humane and more food waste... like I said looks like we’ll have to get used to it. 

I have no idea how you drew those conclusions with steel, Good luck anyway.

[PPP]

25 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I have no idea how you drew those conclusions with steel, Good luck anyway.

By using them on several occasions, I’m not sponsored for cartridges either so that helps conclusions 👍🏻

[wymberley]

5 hours ago, London Best said:

Why would you want to shoot snipe and woodcock with different shot sizes?

Don’t get too hung up on theories, just get ‘em shot.

For exactly the same reason to achieve a sensible maximum range that I wouldn't shoot pheasant with the same shot as I would woodcock which these two species have the same physical characteristics ratio as the woodcock/snipe.

3 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Exactly. Just do it its RIGHT.

 

Steel kills great , could be its just a poor pattern in your choice of gun, . I have a rule if in doubt add more choke. Works sometimes.

Yet here you are quibbling over a couple of points of choke.

[JDog]

Well Kippylawkid are you clear about all that?

[motty]

4 hours ago, PPP said:

Only a couple carried on, my big concern is that birds hit hard take longer to die, certainly not dead in the air ... also the meat was fubarred as the steel shreds as it passes through And doesn’t deform and dump energy.  There is clearly less energy dumped in the bird, they still die though eventually... just less humane and more food waste... like I said looks like we’ll have to get used to it. 

Lead bird shot doesn't "dump" energy. This is another myth. I will have to find some of this deformed lead, too, as I have never found any in a bird that has deformed to any significant degree. The job of a pellet is to hit/penetrate the target. You have claimed that steel does this. Job done!

The reason lead works well, is because it retains energy better than a similar sized steel equivalent. It is not because of some magical energy transfer. Lead also penetrates/goes completely through pigeons.

[Hamster]

11 hours ago, PPP said:

Only a couple carried on, my big concern is that birds hit hard take longer to die, certainly not dead in the air ... also the meat was fubarred as the steel shreds as it passes through And doesn’t deform and dump energy.  There is clearly less energy dumped in the bird, they still die though eventually... just less humane and more food waste... like I said looks like we’ll have to get used to it. 

Neither steel nor lead “dump”energy in the bird through deformation, this is a complete myth easily provable by retrieving perfectly round pellets of either type. 

[London Best]

I have to smile at the thought of Mr. Wymberley standing on a pheasant drive loaded with his ‘ pheasant cartridges’ and scrabbling to change them to ‘woodcock cartridges’ because a woodcock has just appeared, jinking rapidly, above his head.

[PPP]

2 hours ago, Hamster said:

Neither steel nor lead “dump”energy in the bird through deformation, this is a complete myth easily provable by retrieving perfectly round pellets of either type. 

You won't find many any steel pellets in the bird, they tear through ... if the lead pellets are in the bird, what has happened to the energy?  They don't have to deform to deliver energy, if they pass through (as steel) then they don't deliver as much energy..

[motty]

30 minutes ago, PPP said:

You won't find many any steel pellets in the bird, they tear through ... if the lead pellets are in the bird, what has happened to the energy?  They don't have to deform to deliver energy, if they pass through (as steel) then they don't deliver as much energy..

You don't appear to be getting it. Steel or lead pellets can be found inside of dead birds. Also, lead and steel will pass straight through.

Sorry, your argument is flawed. The whole object of any pellet is to penetrate as far into the quarry as it can! That is why people do penetration tests, firing into ballistic gel etc. It is accepted that pellets travelling further into it is desirable. By your logic, steel would pass further into it than the same sized lead pellet. This is not the case.

[wymberley]

3 hours ago, London Best said:

I have to smile at the thought of Mr. Wymberley standing on a pheasant drive loaded with his ‘ pheasant cartridges’ and scrabbling to change them to ‘woodcock cartridges’ because a woodcock has just appeared, jinking rapidly, above his head.

Stop digging the hole and I'm sure that Lancer an speak for himself. I would imagine that anyone faced with this would like myself let fly if the shot was viable. Surely, common sense would have it if you're setting off to shoot pheasant then you wouldn't take a snipe load. Unless, of course, you consider that the result of a survey into the effectiveness of a given shot size is such that it would be equally suitable for a quarry species some four times that weight when all you need to do is pick a bigger shot.

[Guest cookoff013]

2 hours ago, motty said:

You don't appear to be getting it. Steel or lead pellets can be found inside of dead birds. Also, lead and steel will pass straight through.

Sorry, your argument is flawed. The whole object of any pellet is to penetrate as far into the quarry as it can! That is why people do penetration tests, firing into ballistic gel etc. It is accepted that pellets travelling further into it is desirable. By your logic, steel would pass further into it than the same sized lead pellet. This is not the case.

Yup.

 

[lancer425]

Back in the day with pure lead shot, There was deformity during internal ballistics and Large shot which carried enough energy could deform on breast down etc "geese etc" But Unless your dropping pure lead pipe shot DIy. your not going to get any these days. Its been some% of antimony 40 years or more.

 In target deformation wont happen, and any fused pairs or flat spot flyers in a pattern will have been created in poor felt wad ammo "typical commercial.

 % of deformed pellets is low, but can be prevented all together by proper felt wad loading practices, sadly the commercials rarely load lead properly in felt wads. its a nitocard capped felt and shot in crimp it down. To be honest its pathetic.   But in fairness to them the % loss its so low its not a consideration. But its down to reloaders and Winchester to load lead properly, properly being loaded to its full potential. Which you may or may not want or need. .

Cut open a Top end game load "felt. Then cut open a winchester super xx Magnum. Tell me who you think cares about doing the job right then.

[London Best]

Genuine question. As I don’t have any Win super X to try this, could you perhaps describe/explain what the differences are please?

[lancer425]

12 minutes ago, London Best said:

Genuine question. As I don’t have any Win super X to try this, could you perhaps describe/explain what the differences are please?

Winchester white box primer not super hot but good briscance to ignite reliably The Ball powders Winchester used. 571 in 10 and 3 inch mag and 540 win in the 2 3/4 1.5oz Xs .

 Olin Ball like Hs7/ HS6 etc.   Inverted card cup gas seal nitro card the felt card and Tough Plas wrap high antimony shot copper plated DPH about 75brinel "bot sure in Rockwell" which is Tough for lead and in the 10ga about 19 grain of granular buffer.  Welded crimp.

This gives a good reliable ignition in any temperature, and gives you top performance from a lead shotgun cartridge bar none. IMHO>

 I will give some italian firms they did get to do a decent job with some ammo copper platted and buffered, but they never quite got there where the winchester super Xx was. i think the big old 900 bar Fiocchi goose loads in 12 mage were worth the money and they worked well but were vplaswads any way so not on topic with your question, i just included a mention, because i remember the fiocchis well and thought they were good.

[London Best]

OK, thanks for that.

Obviously, we think differently, or at least use different terminology for a ‘game load’. By which I mean a load for shooting ‘game’, not wildfowl.
I may be ‘old school’ but to me a ‘top end game load’ carries 1 1/8 oz of shot max and you are comparing a super X 1 1/2 oz wildfowling load. I know there is a modern tendency to use silly big loads for game but that is not my way of thinking as I find it a bit unnecessary.  Like I said, ‘old fashioned’? But thank you anyway.

[lancer425]

49 minutes ago, London Best said:

OK, thanks for that.

Obviously, we think differently, or at least use different terminology for a ‘game load’. By which I mean a load for shooting ‘game’, not wildfowl.
I may be ‘old school’ but to me a ‘top end game load’ carries 1 1/8 oz of shot max and you are comparing a super X 1 1/2 oz wildfowling load. I know there is a modern tendency to use silly big loads for game but that is not my way of thinking as I find it a bit unnecessary.  Like I said, ‘old fashioned’? But thank you anyway.

The comparison i made was the assembley of the load its component specification rather than its Shot charge or chamber length.

 The aspects of the super xx that make it a good felt wad load are as valid in a 28/ 32 gram game load, it is just that the manufacturers wont do it because nobody sees the need for such loads because they never used any. And game shooters are happy to carry on , because its all they have known.

Winchester made the super xxx commercially, and IF a Cartridge manufacturer assembled a game load along the same lines as that load, i think the uptake by the dedicated game shooters would be significant.

PS. The Plas wrap can be changed for a degradable substitute.

[London Best]

OK, I understand what you are saying.

[wymberley]

3 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Back in the day with pure lead shot, There was deformity during internal ballistics and Large shot which carried enough energy could deform on breast down etc "geese etc" But Unless your dropping pure lead pipe shot DIy. your not going to get any these days. Its been some% of antimony 40 years or more.

 In target deformation wont happen, and any fused pairs or flat spot flyers in a pattern will have been created in poor felt wad ammo "typical commercial.

 % of deformed pellets is low, but can be prevented all together by proper felt wad loading practices, sadly the commercials rarely load lead properly in felt wads. its a nitocard capped felt and shot in crimp it down. To be honest its pathetic.   But in fairness to them the % loss its so low its not a consideration. But its down to reloaders and Winchester to load lead properly, properly being loaded to its full potential. Which you may or may not want or need. .

Cut open a Top end game load "felt. Then cut open a winchester super xx Magnum. Tell me who you think cares about doing the job right then.

Emphasis on the "or more". Apart from the hardness aspect, antimony along with arsenic was being added to lead  by 1930 - I have no idea how long before that - to facilitate the dropped shot process.

[spurs 14]

On 11/05/2020 at 17:37, cookoff013 said:

Those supersteels were ace when they first came out. £70 per thousand

Is that the right price . .?????? 

[Old farrier]

6 hours ago, wymberley said:

Stop digging the hole and I'm sure that Lancer an speak for himself. I would imagine that anyone faced with this would like myself let fly if the shot was viable. Surely, common sense would have it if you're setting off to shoot pheasant then you wouldn't take a snipe load. Unless, of course, you consider that the result of a survey into the effectiveness of a given shot size is such that it would be equally suitable for a quarry species some four times that weight when all you need to do is pick a bigger shot.

Errr 

thought snipe were classed as wildfowl 

though I could be wrong 

hence the different types of cartridges 

[Guest cookoff013]

46 minutes ago, spurs 14 said:

Is that the right price . .?????? 

yep.

it was before the cartridge companys worked out those shells were cheap. they reflected the price of steel at that point too.

when they came out there was the petrol crisis in 20something i think, causing mega issues with shipping.

i do recolect a friend and i bought 2000, and burned up the first 1000 in a mega skeet / sporting session. an ounce of steel 9s are brilliant. and the 7s are good for sporting. 

[chip000]

On 13/05/2020 at 19:36, motty said:

As I have mentioned here before, one of the most prolific pigeon shooters in the country rates these new cartridges pretty highly. If others are struggling with them, I would suggest they check their aim.

I think Geoff gets paid handsomely for his opinions 🤔😉

[PPP]

On 15/05/2020 at 11:37, motty said:

You don't appear to be getting it. Steel or lead pellets can be found inside of dead birds. Also, lead and steel will pass straight through.

Sorry, your argument is flawed. The whole object of any pellet is to penetrate as far into the quarry as it can! That is why people do penetration tests, firing into ballistic gel etc. It is accepted that pellets travelling further into it is desirable. By your logic, steel would pass further into it than the same sized lead pellet. This is not the case.

There’s no ‘it’ to get, these are my findings based on real world, non sponsored use of steel and lead cartridges.

Well just have to disagree