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Demonstrations in london


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What isn't said is that all police in France are armed. Yet there are not these incidents seen in the USA in France. I think the reason is that in the USA some police forces are little more than security guards with guns (such as you'd call here "Blunkett's plastic policemen") whereas both here in the UK and in France the police service is a professional service. Certainly until the recent terror attacks on individual policemen and policewomen in France they were very reticent to un-holster their personal weapon. I think that this has now changed.

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3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I already outlined what I would have liked to see the government say / do. 

I have praised the government where I have found their actions to be praise worthy.

How about not blindly praising the government regardless of what they do.

And please don’t imply I’m suggesting I can do a better job, that is not my point. Again the government are meant to be the ones leading us by example. But I can tell you if industry ran its businesses the way the government currently do, we’d be out of business since we don’t have the luxury of no effective competition (Labour in the case of government).

If you read my words and I quote "  HOW WOULD YOU OF HANDLED IT ANY BETTER "  it was a question , asking how you would if handled , and as you did not say how you would of handled it .

Were in my post did I say or  imply , about blindly  praising the government.  I said to get behind them .

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The thing is, it's not really about the statues. If statues of people with different morality were all to be taken down, Rome for a start would lose half its tourist attractions. And does anyone really believe for a moment that any normal person is offended by a 2 or 3 hundred year old piece of stone?

No, it's about the exercise of power. What these people are saying is that we know that YOU have cultural attachments to these statues, and so we're going to have a laugh and force you to grovel and to add spice, we'll use your own morality against you as our weapon.

What I would say to these people and their gormless enablers is unprintable on this site.

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3 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

What isn't said is that all police in France are armed. Yet there are not these incidents seen in the USA in France. I think the reason is that in the USA some police forces are little more than security guards with guns (such as you'd call here "Blunkett's plastic policemen") whereas both here in the UK and in France the police service is a professional service. Certainly until the recent terror attacks on individual policemen and policewomen in France they were very reticent to un-holster their personal weapon. I think that this has now changed.

But 2 very different cultures, I've often heard black American rappers glorify the killing of police, even recall some rapper saying it was the duty of black people to kill "white pigs"

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1 minute ago, Remimax said:

am i missing something  or did parliment hold a minutes silence for a known criminal today.

couple with the spray painting thugs this  is getting beyond a joke now..

 

It's ok the next time a black man is shot dead while attacking Westminster and killing a policeman we are having a national silence for him.

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will all of these people from the "enslaved colonies" hand back their passports and refuse to take our benifits and leave this racist country or refuse to accept Rhodes scholorships  They do not integrate but live as they did in their old home country yet we ask them to accept our way of life but still refuse. I GREW UP IN COVENTRY AND WENT TO SCHOOL JUNIOR AND SENIOR WITH BOYS AND GIRLS FROM EUROPE AND ASIA BLACK AND WHITE AND HAVE NO PROBLEMS NOR THEY WITH ME THEY WERE/ARE STILL SOME OF MY BEST FREINGS     ONCE THIS STARTS GAINING MOMENTUM WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? graveyards civic buildings will they have to deploy 1 black cop and 1 white cop to every incident to avoid being called racist will they stop arresting blacks that cause trouble because a white cop turns up or vice versa a black cop turns up to a white criminal the race card will spill over into the workplace i have seen it  i am not racist just being realistic

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21 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

If you read my words and I quote "  HOW WOULD YOU OF HANDLED IT ANY BETTER "  it was a question , asking how you would if handled , and as you did not say how you would of handled it .

Were in my post did I say or  imply , about blindly  praising the government.  I said to get behind them .

And again, I repeat, I already said in my original post what I would have liked to see happen. 

Seriously, are you on a wind up?

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If the Government clamp down on the demonstrating rabble - some say it is political suicide. If they don't - some will say they are weak. The demonstrators haven't got a clue of what their end goal is or how it could be achieved. In pandering to them, we are encouraging them. If they don't like things as they are - vote.

For those who say the electoral system isn't what the people want, it is the one we have got and will only be altered at the ballot box.

Why should an elected government listen to criminals, because that is what they are? Please don't say that they are largely peaceful - as they seem incapable of running a peaceful demonstration

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34 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

No, it's about the exercise of power. 

That's interesting.

It's what was said about the statues of Lee, Jefferson Davis, "Stonewall" Jackson, Nathan Bedford Forrest in the former Confederate States in the USA. That these statues weren't erected in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War but some many years later. The Lee in New Orleans in 1921, Charlottesville in 1924, that of Jackson at Manassas in 1938.

The message supposedly being not so much as to honour the individuals depicted as soldiers but to serve as a visual reminder to all that whilst the Confederacy may have lost the Civil War it didn't in the longer term lose the peace. That the attitudes and values it represented still yet endured, remained entrenched and, as these statues proclaimed, the people that were the heirs to those values were still the ones in power.

Statues can remember but they also can announce. They remember what was past but also announce by their presence that the values of those they remember still are worthy of celebration in the present. We can look back at the virtues that these individuals may have had but we must also look back and ask if, regardless of those values, if the whole of what that person was is something now that we see was wrong. Not "politically incorrect" but wrong know, as it truth, it was also wrong then back when they lived. 

Would we in the West, in Britain, not consider it an outrage if the Japanese were to erect statues of Tojo? The Yasukuni Shrine still remains controversial. I am old enough to remember the rightful indignation when Hirohito made a State Visit to the United Kingdom. And there are those who would be outraged if there were a proposal for a statue to him to be erected even today. 

Statues and shrines can speak well of individuals. But they can also speak ill of the values that allowed that individual to flourish. In my opinion and of some others it's when they cease to be about the man but rather about the culture the man was part of that they need to go. In Normandy people kleave flowers on Wittman's grave. But they don't leave flowers on the banks of the Isar.

Edited by enfieldspares
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1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

I have to say, when others were praising the Home Secretary for speaking out against the BLM protesters, I just wanted her to show some humility and state that all statues and monuments were to be reviewed. It could have taken the sting out of the tail of all this in an instance, given the government breathing space and let the situation calm down a bit. 

To rub salt in the wound that's then precisely what Khan and Labour councils throughout the country said they will do.

Another government own goal, no wonder their approval has dived for the fifth week in a row.

I am in no way defending the BLM movement nor the rioters but again the government are supposed to be the professionals ...

I'd have much rather she said we won't be looking at any statues or monuments just because a load of selfish people decided to riot, but we will use all the CCTV footage we can to bring anyone involved to justice. 

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2 minutes ago, clangerman said:

no no no new way of thinking now you HAVE to be offended lol 

How could I possibly be offended after all we are gods chosen people. As slaves go we were far superior to any other, all the lesser "non chosen people" slaves did menial tasks like picking cotton and digging holes but we build pyramids.

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1 minute ago, Mice! said:

I'd have much rather she said we won't be looking at any statues or monuments just because a load of selfish people decided to riot, but we will use all the CCTV footage we can to bring anyone involved to justice. 

I would have been fine with her backing up what I suggested with a statement that anyone caught defacing the monuments in the meantime would get a statutory five year stretch.

Think through what you suggested, pre COVID CCTV was a deterrent, how many people get nailed based on cctv footage alone. Post COVID with face masks, even fewer. As in none probably.

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5 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

We can look back at the virtues that these individuals may have had but we must also look back and ask if, regardless of those values, if the whole of what that person was is something now that we see was wrong.

If you are going to time travel morality, simpler to just tear everything down and start again from scratch. Year Zero. Erase it all.

Go back 100 years, and it's a struggle to find anyone who wasn't racist because that's how they were. So just erase it all. There, job done.

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10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

And again, I repeat, I already said in my original post what I would have liked to see happen. 

Seriously, are you on a wind up?

No not a wind up . I asked you two question  and as yet you have not given me answers  to them .  Question I asked you 

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2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I would have been fine with her backing up what I suggested with a statement that anyone caught defacing the monuments in the meantime would get a statutory five year stretch.

Think through what you suggested, pre COVID CCTV was a deterrent, how many people get nailed based on cctv footage alone. Post COVID with face masks, even fewer. As in none probably.

The bits of footage I've seen, an awful lot weren't wearing masks, but yes some where, then there is mobile phones,  they can be tracked traced and all sorts of other clever things.

If these idiots are allowed to riot and get their own way then where does it end? How long before there are vigilantes out guarding monuments and hoping for trouble?

Its going to get very messy unless its stopped by official means.

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1 minute ago, Mice! said:

The bits of footage I've seen, an awful lot weren't wearing masks, but yes some where, then there is mobile phones,  they can be tracked traced and all sorts of other clever things.

If these idiots are allowed to riot and get their own way then where does it end? How long before there are vigilantes out guarding monuments and hoping for trouble?

Its going to get very messy unless its stopped by official means.

Over in the far east , cant remember  the exact county  . But the were rioting they were sprayed with a dye that would not come of . Allowing the authorities  days later to round them up . Bring back Boris's  water cannon 😀😀

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3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

The bits of footage I've seen, an awful lot weren't wearing masks, but yes some where, then there is mobile phones,  they can be tracked traced and all sorts of other clever things.

If these idiots are allowed to riot and get their own way then where does it end? How long before there are vigilantes out guarding monuments and hoping for trouble?

Its going to get very messy unless its stopped by official means.

Tracked and traced and all sorts of other clever things - like?

I believe what I outlined would have diffused the situation rather than feed it based on the very concerns you have cited.

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6 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

If you are going to time travel morality, simpler to just tear everything down and start again from scratch. Year Zero. Erase it all.

Go back 100 years, and it's a struggle to find anyone who wasn't racist because that's how they were. So just erase it all. There, job done.

In the 2nd WW my late father was dropping bombs on Germany, I will have to erase all memory of him as well, Was he a racist ? .....well he certainly didn't seem all that keen on the Germans..😉

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1 minute ago, johnphilip said:

Over in the far east , cant remember  the exact county  . But the were rioting they were sprayed with a dye that would not come of . Allowing the authorities  days later to round them up . Bring back Boris's  water cannon 😀😀

I suggested the water cannons but apparently they've gone?

Love the idea of spraying the rioters with some sort of dye though.

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8 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

No not a wind up . I asked you two question  and as yet you have not given me answers  to them .  Question I asked you 

But you’re asking questions that would not arise if you’d read and / or understood what I posted. 

No offence but you’ve been calling people out for not understanding but I kinda feel you need to sort your own house out too.

 

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Personally I've always been against these statues. They cost tens of thousands, serve only to make the sculptor or artist wealthy, and are a form of self-indulgence at often Council Tax payers' expense. Seven years ago in Leicester there was a proposal to erect a statue to celebrate the yarn trade, the wool trade, the textile trade with a statue. My late mother as my father's widow got one of the appeal letters. For my late father and our family were scions of a notable family in that trade.

The cost of the statue was to me a mere £25,000. My mother was appalled and wrote back that she'd sooner have £20 spent on a wooden board in Leicester De Montfort University (formerly Leicester Polytechnic) with the names of the donors to the fund written on it and the remaining £24,980 spent to fund a bursary to give an annual grant to a textile student at De Montfort. For wasting that money merely to enrich the artist that created it to now real benefit of any other person she thought wanton.

She talked with others whose families had also been approached and pretty much all were of the same view. So the statue proposal got nothing from us,.Much no doubt to the disappointment of the scupltor whose friends and supporters were peddling yet another the commissioning of another piece of junk from him to keep him in a comfortable lifestyle. Some however did send money and so "The Clothier" statue in Leicester.

The below "The Clicker" in metal, left, and "The Clothier" in marble bricks, right, both being the artist's creations. The statue "The Clothier" cost in total £37,500 of which £22,500 was paid to the man who made it as his "artist's fee! For a pile of bricks.

The-Clicker-sculpture-by-John-Atkin-on-New-Walk-Leicester.jpg       The-Clothier-sculpture-by-John-Atkin-on-New-Walk-Leciester.jpg

Edited by enfieldspares
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