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Demonstrations in london


TRINITY
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7 minutes ago, TRINITY said:

In fact Henry, when I posted above I have thought about adding a bit more to highlight my position. There is no doubt bame have justifiable arguments that need addressing, I accept that. The racism thing is also simmering in the background of society ,it always has. It is far less in the UK since it used to be we have moved on. However if a fire is simmering, you should perhaps wait till it dies out or better still try to put it out. The last thing you do is pour buckets of petrol on it, this is exactly what's happening now. As a white bloke, I have never had problem with race, I see the person and not the colour. I have black friends and there are white people who I cant stand. However I feel all this hatred is being directed to the likes of myself and I have never done a thing to provoke it.

On the numbers theory, I stick by that. The old saying , when you live in Rome etc. We are now being asked to do things and change things to suit others agendas , but I hear very little compromise from the other side. History is history it cant be changed. If I go to Spain, I accept their culture, history and politics. It has nothing to do with me. I live with it and accept it, if I dont like it I move on. The last thing I want to do is to pull down any statues of king Philip because he sent an armada to invade England.

Spot on, I've asked Teal if I can post the msg I've been sent by a few people,  I agree with what's said but some might claim I'm racist for saying it, because I'm white and English. 

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40 minutes ago, TRINITY said:

No falicy , just listen at some of the flames of hatred that are being fanned about us evil white racists, at least that what they are suggesting we all are.

No the fallacy is about how white people will be in the minority, check out the demographics of the UK, we will run out of space first.

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3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Spot on, I've asked Teal if I can post the msg I've been sent by a few people,  I agree with what's said but some might claim I'm racist for saying it, because I'm white and English. 

Any normal white English man or woman who has no interest or influence on the wider society and the world. Just works hard, lives by the law, does the right thing and generally gets on with life must be wondering what they have done wrong. In the 60,s and 70,s we had the Irish Catholics hating us with vengeance, in the 80,s we were at war with ourselves the unions were trying to pull us apart. Next came the muslims and all the wrong we were doing in the Islamic world. Now it the turn of even greater numbers and all the wrong we have done against them. Then there are all the others all over the world having a pop. The Scots are another, according to sturgeon the English are the root of evil and all their problems. So it seems to me plenty have been upset with us. I like to think I have done nothing to cause it, but I am being made to think it's my fault and my problem to put it right.

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Anyhow let's face it, if you cant beat em join !

I,ll start with the statue of emperor Constantine of Rome outside York minster. A leader of a despotic society that invaded England and subjugated the population. Then let's nip down the road to Stamford bridge a blatant pub sign of an axe wielding viking representing harold hardrada  and his attempt to rule England. Then back to the minster itself its initial building started by the norman invaders. While we are at it that lot performed an act of genocide in the harrowing of the north. So every other castle and building they built should be demolished. None more so than the tower of London itself. A living monument to the invasion and subjugation of a nation. 

Right , I,ll get my coat, I,m off . Finished with all this back to other things.

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1 hour ago, TRINITY said:

No under lying agenda from me, again this is a subject I probably know more about than you.  This particular 'argument' is a dispute over the rights and respect of bame communities here and world wide. I conceed this group do have certain grievances that need addressing. However these people are just seen as foot soldiers who's argument can be exploited for wider political purposes. The people behind this are actually at war with society as we know it. You come over as bright, can you remember in the not too distant past when our government was under a simillar threat. The difference this time is that they have found a significant group of our society to motivate to act on their behalf. They also know our society is based on democracy, which is basically a numbers game. Stack the deck till you have the most numbers and you win.

 

I see a trend emerging here. Let's just cut to the chase and allow me to concede you know more about anything and everything than I do, all power to you, hail the Trinity. I'm not here for a penis swinging contest.

So with that out the way, please enlighten me with the evidence and preferably unequivocal proof that the people behind this are indeed "at war with society as we know it" and perhaps in doing so please also identify who these people are?

In the interests of the avoidance of doubt maybe spell out exactly what it is you are referring to in the not too distant past.

This government don't even need to credible opposition to create a threat for them, they can and have disenfranchised the public all by themselves - they actually found something they are rather good at.

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2 hours ago, Mice! said:

Let's say they sit down with err who? What are they going to talk about, not being happy GF was possibly killed by the police? We can all agree that was wrong.

I've already said, sit down with the organisers of the demonstrations. I think you're missing the point, it's not about GF.

Then what? This idea that there is a need for BLM is rubbish, every colour and religion that lives in Great Britain is represented, and I'd say that the only flag which gets called or abused for being flown is the St George's cross, the so called minorities in this country probably have more say than the average bloke does.

I agree but not exactly the tack / line of reasoning I was use to try to coerce them to unified agreement and public statement on the fact that All Lives Matter.

I'm probably treading a fine line here? 

Let's then say the demonstrators want to remove Nelson's Column or Churchill's monument?? Really!!

Hang on, did we stop negotiating with them or what, did I miss something here?

Then think back to the riots in er 2011 Bradford & Liverpool and other places,  so other groups see that a bit of rioting gets you a seat at the table and a bigger piece of pie?

Again, you're missing the point. We negotiate with the organisers of the demonstrations who did so with the intent of it remaining peaceful. There is no place at the table for people advocating and participating in riots. My proposed approach has isolated these people and made them aware of the consequences of their continued actions again civil well being.

I really hope not.

The fact of the matter is that we did sit down with Terrorists and handled them a share of power in NI. If we are not careful, and there really are dark underworld forces acting here then we run the risk of allowing ill guided people to be further radicalised. We already have enough terrorists and other issues to deal with. Let's keep home grown ones to lone operators not help facilitate a new domestic terrorist network.

As far as I'm concerned the trouble making rent a mob losers can go to hell, I just don't want to be part of a society that takes a group of people standing up for a justified cause and grievance with them, as if nothing else that would drive even further unnecessary division.

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

One persons compromise is anothers "we won" and a thirds (you gave it away).  This is not sometime to be giving ground.

The message that "Protesting and disruption gets you what you want" MUST not come out of this.  I am reminded of the (I suspect quite false) Churchillian saying "You cannot reason with a tiger when your head is in it's mouth".

I disagree. One of the key points of engaging with these people is to talk through the logical consequences of what it is that they are pursuing. If anyone wants to pursue the notion that Churchill was racist, then that's fine - let's have the discussion accepting that Gandhi is the next item on the agenda. Point is where does it end. Have these people thought through the logical consequences of what they are standing for, maybe once they do they might find it better to sit down and ****.

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2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Sorry , but thats really naive.
The thing that gets the message across with protests , is numbers, and for that you need momentum and outrage.
You lose either by 'talking' , you lose the initiative.
They simply wont allow that to happen.

OK, I'm naive, that's fine.

The thing is we can't really even have a proper discussion on this if you won't reveal who your version of who "they" are is.

2 hours ago, old'un said:

You make it sound so simple.

No simple and I don't have the patience to execute it but the approach is sound and it'd be childs play for a seasoned negotiator, especially if the opposition are indeed half wits.

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

The organisers don't give a fig about the BLM issue in reality, the organisers don't give a fig about Extinction Rebellion or any other cause. The people doing the demonstrating probably do (well most of them anyway) but the organisation behind all this is the shadowy International Marxist Group in its various incarnations who only want to spread dissent and anarchy.

Pointers please?

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2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Here (briefly) is the agenda - and it is neither 'underlying' or in any way hidden;

  1. Allow the Americans to deal with issues relating to the conduct of their police in their country in their own courts according to their law.  It is NOT the UK's business.
  2. Stop smashing up the UK's heritage.  If you want it removed - use the democratic process.
  3. If you must demonstrate, keep it peaceful, observe the laws (including the present Covid ones) - and ALL (for the avoidance of doubt that means everyone's) lives matter.
  4. You will not 'bully' your way to get your own way.  We are a democracy.  We will not give in to minority bullies.

Your version of the agenda John - there is hardly a united front of opposition to my proposal. On one hand they are half wits and on the other an underworld network of dark Marxist manipulators. Apparently these muppet masters are playing on the emotions of a bunch of young gullible precious snowflakes who are still outraged by the holocaust inflicted on their forefathers due to the colour of the skin, the key actors of which they consider as still being held in high regard by the establishment of the country of their birth.

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Ok, we airbrush history  and hang our collective heads in shame for historical actions we cannot influence. Then it’s job done? We’ve made a “difference”?

Super. Meanwhile people die at home in Yemen because the hospitals are full and Aung San Suu Kyi (once celebrated by the very sort of people that spout their faux outrage at the current demos) presides over ethic cleansing. That’s just two of many in the world today but I suppose real issues are a bit more complex and there’s often no convenient Waitrose to drop into on the way home.

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22 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

This government don't even need to credible opposition to create a threat for them, they can and have disenfranchised the public all by themselves - they actually found something they are rather good at.

?? In what way have they disenfranchised the public ?
If anything , 'the public' who you might find are of a white English majority , will be angry at the government for not stopping this wanton damage of national monuments, by cracking some skulls.
Yes , people are not happy with the way AMERICAN  police are 'responsible' for the death of GF , but weve swiftly moved on from there now, and we are challenging how OUR society functions.
If anything its playing straight into the far rights hands....

Those statues have been there for a long, long time, why now?
Why has sadiq took it upon himself to be the nations moral compass, hes a minority son of a bus driver, and hes mayor of London !
So much for inequality eh ?

 

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

The thing is we can't really even have a proper discussion on this if you won't reveal who your version of who "they" are is.

Please dont do a henry, and expect the answers to questions like that to jump out of a google search.
People who do subtle manipulation , dont put their names forward for public scrutiny, especially when that scrutiny will throw up all kinds of questions about motive.

Look who the biggest benefactors are of organisations like antifa, XR  and BLM , those people are your movers and shakers in the alt left world, they own newspapers and TV channels.
They have an agenda I can only guess at, but their weapon is chaos and above all , division.

Race, and racism is something we ALL live with, its not something that occupies most peoples thoughts as we struggle through life, yet we are constantly reminded about the injustices on a virtually daily basis , by that same media that seems to profit from division.

The colonial British used racial division to conquer entire continents with very few troops using this ploy of division, Id like to think weve moved on from those ambitions, but dont let the same tactic be used on us today.
Whatever your race or colour, I think we are better than that.

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Apparently these muppet masters are playing on the emotions of a bunch of young gullible precious snowflakes who are still outraged by the holocaust inflicted on their forefathers due to the colour of the skin, the key actors of which they consider as still being held in high regard by the establishment of the country of their birth.

Sounds about right.

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1 hour ago, TRINITY said:

Any normal white English man or woman who has no interest or influence on the wider society and the world. Just works hard, lives by the law, does the right thing and generally gets on with life must be wondering what they have done wrong

Trinity more or less said what the msg I've been sent says, I have deleted part of it, I've had it from friends and family,  I've seen it online and I'm sure others have as well.

############

True this.

 

I have been wondering about why whites are racists, and no other race is? 

There are British Africans, British Chinese, British Asian, British Turks, etc, etc, etc. 

And then there are just British. You know what I mean, plain ole English people that were born here. You can include the Welsh, the Scottish and the people who live off our shores of Great Britain.

You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you. So why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live? 

You have the Muslim Council of Great Britain. 

You have Black History Month. 

You have swimming pools for Asian women. 

You have Islamic banks for Muslims only. 

You have year of the dragon day for Chinese people. 

If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists. 

If we had White History Month, we'd be racists. 

If we had any organization for only whites to 'advance' OUR lives, we'd be racists. 

A white woman could not be in the Miss Black Britain or Miss Asia, but any colour can be in the Miss UK. 

If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships, you know we'd be racists.

There are over 200 openly proclaimed Muslim only schools in England. Yet if there were 'White schools only', that would be racist!

In the Bradford riots and Toxteth riots, you believed that you were standing-up for your race and rights. If we stood-up for our race and rights, you would call us racists. 

You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists. 

We fly our flag, we are racists. If we celebrate St George's day we are racists. 

You can fly your flag and it’s called diversity. You celebrate your cultures and it’s called multiculturalism. 

I am proud.... but you call me a racist. 

Why is it that only whites can be racists?? 

There is nothing improper about this post. Let's see which of you are proud enough to send it on. 

I sadly don't think many will. That's why we have LOST most of OUR RIGHTS in this country. We won't stand up for ourselves! 

BEING PROUD TO BE WHITE! It's not a crime, YET... but its getting very close! Shared from someone else’s post they got a point

#########

As far as I'm concerned I doubt there is a more mixed group living in one country, but the minority seem to think they can continually demand more, like the BLM march, I doubt there is another country where the largest proportion of the population are constantly the ones expected to apologise and give in to the demands of these smaller groups, this is where negotiations will leave us, giving up more to the minority rather than the minority expecting they want to live in this green and pleasant land.

1 hour ago, henry d said:

@TRINITYOk, over to you. Crunch those numbers!

This is where the numbers come in I feel Henry.

33 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

disagree. One of the key points of engaging with these people is to talk through the logical consequences of what it is that they are pursuing. If anyone wants to pursue the notion that Churchill was racist, then that's fine - let's have the discussion accepting that Gandhi is the next item on the agenda. Point is where does it end. Have these people thought through the logical consequences of what they are standing for, maybe once they do they might find it better to sit down and ****.

Where does it end? 

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Just now, Rewulf said:

?? In what way have they disenfranchised the public ?
If anything , 'the public' who you might find are of a white English majority , will be angry at the government for not stopping this wanton damage of national monuments, by cracking some skulls.
Yes , people are not happy with the way AMERICAN  police are 'responsible' for the death of GF , but weve swiftly moved on from there now, and we are challenging how OUR society functions.
If anything its playing straight into the far rights hands....

Those statues have been there for a long, long time, why now?
Why has sadiq took it upon himself to be the nations moral compass, hes a minority son of a bus driver, and hes mayor of London !
So much for inequality eh ?

Look at the yougov polls over the past six weeks.

Please dont do a henry, and expect the answers to questions like that to jump out of a google search.
People who do subtle manipulation , dont put their names forward for public scrutiny, especially when that scrutiny will throw up all kinds of questions about motive.

I made the point in response to a previous, repeated point, that the other poster knew more about this than I ever would and then went on to talk about things in something akin to esoteric rambling...

Look who the biggest benefactors are of organisations like antifa, XR  and BLM , those people are your movers and shakers in the alt left world, they own newspapers and TV channels.
They have an agenda I can only guess at, but their weapon is chaos and above all , division.

At least you answered my question, even if it was posed with slightly rhetorical intent.

Race, and racism is something we ALL live with, its not something that occupies most peoples thoughts as we struggle through life, yet we are constantly reminded about the injustices on a virtually daily basis , by that same media that seems to profit from division.

The colonial British used racial division to conquer entire continents with very few troops using this ploy of division, Id like to think weve moved on from those ambitions, but dont let the same tactic be used on us today.
Whatever your race or colour, I think we are better than that.

I agree. I also totally reject the notion that BLM is valid. I have already convinced my Kenyan pals in the US that this is the case. If I was forced to I would make a physical stand over the fact it should be ALM. I've said from the off the way to deal with this is to reject the notion that there is a difference and therefore no basis for discrimination.

If you actually read to the end of what I was suggesting, I think my proposal was aligned with the same overall objective as most. The problem was, as is often the case, I didn't get to explain before the usual divisions of PW internal identity politics came into play. The dynamic on here continues to fascinate me.

 

Just now, Mice! said:

I have been wondering about why whites are racists, and no other race is? 

This falls over with the first factual inaccuracy in the opening line .

Where does it end? #

Exactly the point, the answer being that if it's followed logically somewhere where nobody wants to arrive at.

 

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37 minutes ago, Mice! said:

############

True this.

 

I have been wondering about why whites are racists, and no other race is? 

There are British Africans, British Chinese, British Asian, British Turks, etc, etc, etc. 

And then there are just British. You know what I mean, plain ole English people that were born here. You can include the Welsh, the Scottish and the people who live off our shores of Great Britain.

You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you. So why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live? 

You have the Muslim Council of Great Britain. 

You have Black History Month. 

You have swimming pools for Asian women. 

You have Islamic banks for Muslims only. 

You have year of the dragon day for Chinese people. 

If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists. 

If we had White History Month, we'd be racists. 

If we had any organization for only whites to 'advance' OUR lives, we'd be racists. 

A white woman could not be in the Miss Black Britain or Miss Asia, but any colour can be in the Miss UK. 

If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships, you know we'd be racists.

There are over 200 openly proclaimed Muslim only schools in England. Yet if there were 'White schools only', that would be racist!

In the Bradford riots and Toxteth riots, you believed that you were standing-up for your race and rights. If we stood-up for our race and rights, you would call us racists. 

You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists. 

We fly our flag, we are racists. If we celebrate St George's day we are racists. 

You can fly your flag and it’s called diversity. You celebrate your cultures and it’s called multiculturalism. 

I am proud.... but you call me a racist. 

Why is it that only whites can be racists?? 

There is nothing improper about this post. Let's see which of you are proud enough to send it on. 

I sadly don't think many will. That's why we have LOST most of OUR RIGHTS in this country. We won't stand up for ourselves! 

BEING PROUD TO BE WHITE! It's not a crime, YET... but its getting very close! Shared from someone else’s post they got a point

 

Almost an entire post of tokenism and quite honestly not worth the posting.  Everything about that post seeks to highlight a difference.

The issue of systemic racism cannot be distilled down to individual tokens, it cannot be washed away by saying 'there is no government policy of bias' or indeed the contrary that 'the law expressly forbids racism' as though that somehow means racism does not exist.

Of course there is a spread of opinion of what racism is, where it exists, how much it exists.  On one side there are undoubtably individuals who claim racism is at the root of everything that has ever gone wrong for them and at the other extreme you will have people idealistically saying that it doesn't exist at all and it is just a copout excuse for the ne'er do wells who want to blame failure on something else.

As with anything the reality doesn't exist wholly at the extremes, it is not a binary issue, it is not a universal experience across all the UK, in short it is not simplistic and can be waved away by having token symbolism to suggest everything is OK.

I daresay plenty will be in violent agreement with the post you shared and think i'm an idiot or naive or an apologist, i've big enough shoulders to carry that burden and I don't actually care.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Almost an entire post of tokenism and quite honestly not worth the posting.  Everything about that post seeks to highlight a difference.

The issue of systemic racism cannot be distilled down to individual tokens, it cannot be washed away by saying 'there is no government policy of bias' or indeed the contrary that 'the law expressly forbids racism' as though that somehow means racism does not exist.

Of course there is a spread of opinion of what racism is, where it exists, how much it exists.  On one side there are undoubtably individuals who claim racism is at the root of everything that has ever gone wrong for them and at the other extreme you will have people idealistically saying that it doesn't exist at all and it is just a copout excuse for the ne'er do wells who want to blame failure on something else.

As with anything the reality doesn't exist wholly at the extremes, it is not a binary issue, it is not a universal experience across all the UK, in short it is not simplistic and can be waved away by having token symbolism to suggest everything is OK.

I daresay plenty will be in violent agreement with the post you shared and think i'm an idiot or naive or an apologist, i've big enough shoulders to carry that burden and I don't actually care.

 

 

This and also I would take issue with the word ‘Muslim’. That’s not a race. A Muslim school is a faith school in much the same way as a catholic school.

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4 minutes ago, grrclark said:

daresay plenty will be in violent agreement with the post you shared and think i'm an idiot or naive or an apologist, i've big enough shoulders to carry that burden and I don't actually care

I don't expect everyone to agree with everything,  no one ever does, for me it points out how much is done to include everyone that lives in this country. 

But it can't keep eroding our British way of life or history to the point that it's just the minority groups or religious beliefs that hold sway. 

4 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

This and also I would take issue with the word ‘Muslim’. That’s not a race. A Muslim school is a faith school in much the same way as a catholic school.

Not my words but ok, my kids go to a Catholic school but aren't Catholic,  could they go to a Muslim school?

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4 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I don't expect everyone to agree with everything,  no one ever does, for me it points out how much is done to include everyone that lives in this country. 

But it can't keep eroding our British way of life or history to the point that it's just the minority groups or religious beliefs that hold sway. 

Not my words but ok, my kids go to a Catholic school but aren't Catholic,  could they go to a Muslim school?

Just out of interest, what is ‘ the British way of life’?

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