Demonstrations in london

[grrclark]

19 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I did actually see that article and map earlier, basically dismissed it since it covers areas I know pretty well. There are indeed some places where it's a bit sketchy by which I mean parking up and going to eat at a local restaurant can feel a bit weird but there isn't anywhere in that map I wouldn't go.

One such area that springs to mind is just West of London hospital around the Tayyabs restaurant area - it's so "no-go" they allow you to BYOB 🙂 

Certainly nothing like no-go areas for the Police.

There will be estates, schemes and sites throughout the country where the police are wholly unwelcome and there is no cooperation or engagement with the police so the police may make tactical decisions to engage only where necessary, but that is different from a complete no go zone.

There are also areas that i'm sure HenryD would attest to that on say bonfire night if the fire brigade rocked up they might get a hostile repsonse for wanting to put out the bonfire.  Those are very localised and tend to have acute spikes where local tensions run high, like on bonfire night (there was a great example in NI last year).

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, grrclark said:

There will be estates, schemes and sites throughout the country where the police are wholly unwelcome and there is no cooperation or engagement with the police so the police may make tactical decisions to engage only where necessary, but that is different from a complete no go zone.

There are also areas that i'm sure HenryD would attest to that on say bonfire night if the fire brigade rocked up they might get a hostile repsonse for wanting to put out the bonfire.  Those are very localised and tend to have acute spikes where local tensions run high, like on bonfire night (there was a great example in NI last year).

Agreed. It would seem logical that the use of unmarked cars is applied in some areas too.

[grrclark]

36 minutes ago, Mice! said:

So you can't get WB in other countries,  then they would be immigrants,  I thought you were a clever bloke, which other country could you expect to move to and expect your religious views,  and dietary needs to become mainstream? And yes I realise this didn't happen over night.

That is at the heart of much of the argument about colonialisation.  Yes it is in the past, but good old GB marched in, took over and said this is how we do it and you locals better tow the line.

As you are reacting to what you see happening in the UK now others are saying that is precisely what you did to us, but did it by force.

[Gordon R]

At what point will protesters draw a line under the past. If you go back far enough - the Romans, the French, the Germans, the Vikings, the Argentinians, the Italians, the Japanese - all have been in conflict with us, a number have invaded us.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Gordon R

[Mice!]

44 minutes ago, henry d said:

So what is your definition of a ghetto? BTW I didn't.

I just said what my idea of a ghetto was, somewhere a stranger doesn't go, white or coloured they exist.

What is your definition?

[AVB]

20 minutes ago, grrclark said:

That is at the heart of much of the argument about colonialisation.  Yes it is in the past, but good old GB marched in, took over and said this is how we do it and you locals better tow the line.

As you are reacting to what you see happening in the UK now others are saying that is precisely what you did to us, but did it by force.

But we were condemned for that. So should we also condemn those that are trying to force changes?  

[GingerCat]

52 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

GingerCat, whilst I support most of what you post, you missed caravan sites. A friend of a lad I shoot with had his motocross bike stolen. He followed the thieves to a caravan site. He phoned the Police whilst he could see his bike being ridden around the site. The Police would not attend. It doesn't apply to all sites, nor all Police Forces, but it does happen.

As tragic as that is it doesn't mean its a no go. I suspect they didn't have any resources for the inevitable rumble that would have occurred. If police want to go on a caravan site they will, like most things you need to plan for it as otherwise you won't have the staff. Most days I would struggle to kick a simple door in as the thin blue line is currently so thin its transparent. 

[Mice!]

22 minutes ago, grrclark said:

That is at the heart of much of the argument about colonialisation.  Yes it is in the past, but good old GB marched in, took over and said this is how we do it and you locals better tow the line.

As you are reacting to what you see happening in the UK now others are saying that is precisely what you did to us, but did it by force.

Indeed, but how many years ago? I would have loved them to have taught these things in school.

The English,  Scots, Welsh and Irish marched all over the world, is anyone in Scotland complaining about Scots profiting from Slavery or things that went on hundreds of years ago.

Normally it's just complaining about the English,  but Wellington wouldn't have won without all 4 countries.

3 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

thin blue line is currently so thin its transparent. 

Normally I'd agree with you,  but the amount of police I've seen in Barrow lately is unbelievable,  I know why and they must have been drafted in from all over.

[GingerCat]

50 minutes ago, old'un said:

Why would he lie to me?

This was just after the 1981 riots in Handsworth, they were told not to patrol certain roads in marked police cars or on foot as it may inflame the situation, to me that’s a no-go area.

No idea, I head the same from locals when I worked in Central London on some of the nastiest estates in Western Europe. Mostly whilst in plain clothes I'd hear about how the police fear to tread in their patch. We were there most mornings raiding flats or conducting other activities. True the locals didn't always appreciate us but that didn't stop us. One operation saw 70 arrested for drugs supply and lasted 3 months. Bar 2 they all went to prison. Some of the locals rejoiced whilst others said unpleasant things. All crime in the area fell 50% in the aftermath until more dealers appeared and the wheel went round again. 

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

 

Normally I'd agree with you,  but the amount of police I've seen in Barrow lately is unbelievable,  I know why and they must have been drafted in from all over.

Most leave has been cancelled for some time. So has pretty much all training and refresher courses,Its not extra cops, just pulled from elsewhere on their days off. I bet they're really happy about it too given the weather, that i mean as well. Pc rain is almost as good as pc snow at halting crime. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

As tragic as that is it doesn't mean its a no go. I suspect they didn't have any resources for the inevitable rumble that would have occurred.

I recall the explanation was that "it would all kick off". From what you say, it would definitely appear to be a no go area, without prior planning. 

[Mice!]

10 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Most leave has been cancelled for some time. So has pretty much all training and refresher courses,Its not extra cops, just pulled from elsewhere on their days off. I bet they're really happy about it too given the weather, that i mean as well. Pc rain is almost as good as pc snow at halting crime. 

I was talking to two armed coppers walking around site in shirt sleeves last week, they were enjoying the nice weather, but then they were effectively just walking in the sunshine 😅😅

5 hours ago, Remimax said:

just think of all the fun been lost blasting em off it with a water cannon.

this spineless country is beyond a joke.

It would have made the news more enjoyable. 

[GingerCat]

Just now, Gordon R said:

I recall the explanation was that "it would all kick off". From what you say, it would definitely appear to be a no go area, without prior planning. 

Everything needs planning these days or you get sued as people will get hurt.  To do the job in accordance with the home office rules, pace, and other laws you need a few more to prevent unnecessary injuries as well as be able to gather evidence (or you'll just be letting them out again pretty quickly).  In that regard everywhere is a no go I guess.

Ultimately  you to balance the risk to the reward. If someone was being hurt they would go in regardless, a stolen bike can be recovered later. Sad I know. With more cops it wouldn't have been an issue, it never is. The trouble is currently there isn't very many to go round even with all the cancelled leave and training we often struggle to staff all the shifts. 

[Scully]

Just thinking about the Fawlty Towers episode mentioned earlier being dropped from viewing, doesn’t logic dictate that ALL episodes be chopped due to the stereotyping and treatment of the character of the Spanish waiter Manuel? 

[henry d]

57 minutes ago, grrclark said:

There are also areas that i'm sure HenryD would attest to that on say bonfire night if the fire brigade rocked up they might get a hostile repsonse for wanting to put out the bonfire.

I have to say that the only time I was bricked was in Whitfield in Dundee, but they were after the police, but yes there are areas where you will get abuse, but nothing like the police.

34 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I just said what my idea of a ghetto was, somewhere a stranger doesn't go, white or coloured they exist.

What is your definition?

Same as the dictionary definition, poor area regardless of skin colour etc but has nothing to do with people not going there. I live right next to an area of urban deprivation that is in the lowest percentile in Scotland and regularly walk there and have done for the past 29 years, is it to do with cajones? Nah

[islandgun]

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

Just thinking about the Fawlty Towers episode mentioned earlier being dropped from viewing, doesn’t logic dictate that ALL episodes be chopped due to the stereotyping and treatment of the character of the Spanish waiter Manuel? 

Or the ageist alzheimer stereotype "major"...... was Basil autistic ? 

your right all episodes....in fact all history.... knock down all the buildings older than 20yrs ...all the roads built by navies...railways, mines, everything... aaaah

Edited June 12, 2020 by islandgun

[GingerCat]

10 minutes ago, Scully said:

Just thinking about the Fawlty Towers episode mentioned earlier being dropped from viewing, doesn’t logic dictate that ALL episodes be chopped due to the stereotyping and treatment of the character of the Spanish waiter Manuel? 

He actually broke his tooth in one episode and when he ran off into the kitchen it was a real reaction.  Brutality against the Spanish as well.

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Same as the dictionary definition, poor area regardless of skin colour etc but has nothing to do with people not going there. I live right next to an area of urban deprivation that is in the lowest percentile in Scotland and regularly walk there and have done for the past 29 years, is it to do with cajones? Nah

So you've been there 29 years, so your a local not a stranger,  you won't stand out as different. 

The area I grew up was ok, but between two dodgy areas, I had no issue walking there as a kid, I went to school with many, but I wouldn't have left my bike outside. 

As for cajones, would you walk there at night after dark? If the answer is yes then it's not really that bad.

Would you walk through toxteth or some of the other areas mentioned above after dark? I doubt you'd want to, your not from there so would stand out like a sore thumb.

 

[henry d]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

I live right next to an area of urban deprivation

 

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

your a local not a stranger,  you won't stand out as different. 

No, read it again.

 

2 minutes ago, Mice! said:

As for cajones, would you walk there at night after dark? If the answer is yes then it's not really that bad

Yes I have done. Then bad is subjective, I've walked around Arthur's Hill in Newcastle and the bensham areas of Gateshead, Jarrow, Hebburn, Parkhead and the Gorbals in Glasgow, Clydebank, Wester Hailes and Saughton in auld reekie, pottery quay, Swilly and At Bureaux in Plymouth.

[grrclark]

2 hours ago, AVB said:

But we were condemned for that. So should we also condemn those that are trying to force changes?  

We absolutely should be condemning some of it yes, for example campaigning to defund the police.

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

Indeed, but how many years ago? I would have loved them to have taught these things in school.

The English,  Scots, Welsh and Irish marched all over the world, is anyone in Scotland complaining about Scots profiting from Slavery or things that went on hundreds of years ago.

Normally it's just complaining about the English,  but Wellington wouldn't have won without all 4 countries.

So part of an answer does need to be a better awareness of the consequence of our past, both the good and bad bits.  It's interesting that not long before the UK abolished slavery there are records of protest in some of the slums of Glasgow as the locals thought the slaves had it better than them.

1 hour ago, henry d said:

I have to say that the only time I was bricked was in Whitfield in Dundee, but they were after the police, but yes there are areas where you will get abuse, but nothing like the police.

I remember my dad saying when he was stationed at the Kingsway that on shouts to Whitfield there was a footbridge, I think over Whitfield Drive, that they always had to look out closely for as kids used to hang a brick on a rope to try and knock the blue light off the top of the appliance !

[WalkedUp]

11 hours ago, Jaymo said:

I’m not sure what her normal salary is? But being capped at £2500 means she could be actually receiving a lot less than 80% - not good if your prior commitments were greater than this ( plus, remember it’s subject to tax and NI)

Good point, I don’t do the financial or HR side but yes she’s on a much lower salary than her normal. £25,000 is more than enough to cover essentials. Even if you were both furloughed that’s £50,000 a year. Their combined income with one furloughed is still higher than that of my wife and myself in normal times. We have three children to feed, clothe and educate. The child care cost have to be paid even whilst the places are closed.

[WalkedUp]

11 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

But police brutality is completely separate to police brutality based on race, particularly when it's in another country by a police force that is nothing to do with us. Unless your honestly suggesting that black people in the UK are being beaten up by the police for being black?

I don't see any similarity at all.

Yes, police brutality is different to police discrimination. I believe the killing of George Floyd was not race based (in fact non of the officers would I class as white if they were in the UK). If you have a high number of police killings eventually some are going to be white cops and black criminals, eventually some are going to be unjustified. 

I would find it hard to believe that police discrimination was prevalent in the UK based upon my life experience but I’ve got a very limited window into the experiences of our wider society.

The similarity with FF is that you would not go to war against half the world for the sake of some idiotic archduke who put himself squarely in harm’s way and ended up dead. Yet due to the stacked deck that event triggered WW1. In normal times no one would realistically go on protests ripping down statues on the behalf of George Floyd. However there is the lockdown. sunny weather, ‘black oppression’ narrative, a simmering resentment of past colonialism and white shame that meant such a small event could trigger this huge, almost completely unrelated movement. 

[henry d]

35 minutes ago, Mice! said:

As for cajones, would you walk there at night after dark? If the answer is yes then it's not really that bad

Lets also go offshore; Djibouti, Southern Districts of Columbo, Karachi, The docks of Manhattan, dodgy areas of Charleston, weat palm beach, fort Lauderdale, Mobile, everyone of which had **** poor neighbourhoods of different ethnicity but every one was open to welcoming the stranger, strange that!

[WalkedUp]

37 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Would you walk through toxteth or some of the other areas mentioned above after dark? I doubt you'd want to, your not from there so would stand out like a sore thumb.

 

I’ve walked through Toxteth, Moss Side, Brixton, Broadwater Farm, Park Hill, Rock Ferry etc on my own after dark. Normally after a few beers, never had and issue or even a worry.  Fear is in a person, not a place. I’ve only been attempted mugged once and that was in West Street, Sheffield. If Sheffield had a swanky city centre that would be it. I was drunk eating chicken and chips walking home, a Somalian dude started walking with me hassling me. I was too drunk to care to listen to his chat and hadn’t realised he was trying to mug me until he got in front of me and put his hand on my chest. Saying “Phone. Give me the phone”. Poor guy, hadn’t realised that growing up in Somolali is not as rough as growing up in Birkenhead. Flipped the hot chicken and chips into his face and put my forehead through his nose. He crumpled to the floor and I ran like the wind. Turned round and he had disappeared, along with any mates. It was a stupid thing for me to do, could have easily been stabbed. But if you poke a bear you get bitten. 

[henry d]

17 minutes ago, grrclark said:

I remember my dad saying when he was stationed at the Kingsway that on shouts to Whitfield there was a footbridge, I think over Whitfield Drive, that they always had to look out closely for as kids used to hang a brick on a rope to try and knock the blue light off the top of the appliance !

Not 100% where that was as i was only at the Kingsway east for 2-3 years and relied on the lads in the back for topography, as they relied on me when we were sent to Perth. I remember that Douglas and Whitfield used to call themselves West (Broughty) Ferry 🤣

[Gordon R]

Quote

Just thinking about the Fawlty Towers episode mentioned earlier being dropped from viewing, doesn’t logic dictate that ALL episodes be chopped due to the stereotyping and treatment of the character of the Spanish waiter Manuel? 

Snowflakes take offence at Manuel, which is odd as the man who is based upon is someone I have met. His name was Miguel - just the same as Manuel - slightly heavier and with glasses. He was apparently flattered and did not take offence. Nice man.

GingerCat - fair explanation.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Gordon R