Demonstrations in london

[Dave-G]

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

I wonder if you were to really put your mind to it how good an example of everyday racial stereotyping you could come up with when you can make one this good without, I expect, even trying.

Lol, it wasn't my fault they make it so obvious they don't give a toss. and it seems to me there are forum members posting comments that can be taken different ways instead of spelling it out clearly.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Dave-G

[Mice!]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

It's difficult to legislate against public stupidity and you can't help some people (see above for proof of that) 🙄

But you can see my point surely?

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Mice! said:

But you can see my point surely?

Yes I can.

But, I think you were particularly critical of the people swarming to North Wales prior to the lockdown, again it looks really bad but what people did individually or in small groups, taken in isolation isn't particularly unreasonable. If I'd decided to take my lad there I could have driven up at midnight parked up and taken the day in the mountains to come back to the car only to find the madness on my return.

That's an extreme of course but by the same token, if I've driven up in the morning, six hours later I arrive to find it mobbed, do I turn around and drive straight back down to London again.

I'm not defending that situation and I didn't go up there but a bit of me wanted to.

The same applies to the people on the beach, tough call to turn up and drive straight back away again, even if you know it's the right thing to do.

Similarly, with the store queues, more and more people arrive and you know you shouldn't hang around any longer but you've waited this long, that said I'm sure some people did give up and go home.

I guess all I'm saying is these scenarios are a bit different in so much as they are not mass coordinated events like the protests.

I'm in no way defending it but just putting across a view where i can see how it happens. Personally I can't stand to queue, I think I made 8 consecutive attempts to visit Costco during the lock-down before I got there and found a queue short enough for me to justify standing in...

[grrclark]

11 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Lol, it wasn't my fault they make it so obvious they don't give a toss. and it seems to me there are forum members posting comments that can be taken different ways instead of spelling it out clearly.

Who is “they”?

Do you mean the queue of people ignoring any concern of personal safeguarding regard corona virus or do you specifically mean the “BAME people” that you referred to earlier?

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 😄I don't know why you're so surprised. I genuinely don't have any particular partisan standpoint. I just try and go with whatever makes sense to me, regardless of who or where it comes from. 

[grrclark]

21 minutes ago, Mice! said:

So here is a question,  we are told that this virus has more effect on the Bame group, we're told that there needs to be an investigation as to why this is, are we supposed to think that none of the lads in these pictures have been told or do they not give a rats ####

So Saturday we have BLM marches and demos with statues and monuments covered up, rioting and violence,  but then monday when the shops open it's a free for all, BL(don't)M.

I realise this is a small group, but someone tell me why I should listen to what BLM are saying or why the government should change anything when a sports shop opening shows how people really feel, push your way in because trainers matter.

We have personally been avoiding any ques, anywhere that might be busy, this is despite us not expecting to be affected,  if it was a case of white people aged 30-50 are most likely to be affected you wouldn't find me anywhere near something as irrelevant as a sports shop.

Conflating the central BLM issue of endemic and systemIc racism and a group of folk with little regard for their personal safeguarding by sharing very close proximity is wholly flawed.  It doesn’t matter that the shop picture was of predominantly black youths.

By all means levelling  criticism at the recklessness of folk queuing as in the pic is fair enough, basing that criticism by dint of their ethnicity isn’t.

Dave-G’s comment was wholly predicated on their race, ergo textbook racism.

Why would a picture of a group of people queuing at a sports shop negate any message given by BLM about systemic racism?

[Raja Clavata]

Kinda debunks the very flawed notion that racism in the UK is very very rare too. Served on a plate in the very same thread.

[Mice!]

9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Yes I can.

Well that's good.

10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

But, I think you were particularly critical of the people swarming to North Wales prior to the lockdown

I was, and all the people who flocked to the beaches when travel restrictions were eased.

11 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

If I'd decided to take my lad there I could have driven up at midnight parked up and taken the day in the mountains to come back to the car only to find the madness on my return.

But why travel when asked nicely not too, which then resulted in the lockdown. Everyone new what was coming. 

14 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Similarly, with the store queues, more and more people arrive and you know you shouldn't hang around any longer but you've waited this long, that said I'm sure some people did give up and go home.

Huge difference between people queuing for hours outside shops, I may think its daft but it's their choice, and trying to force your way into a shop.

16 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm in no way defending it but just putting across a view where i can see how it happens. Personally I can't stand to queue, I think I made 8 consecutive attempts to visit Costco during the lock-down before I got there and found a queue short enough for me to justify standing in...

You were doing well but then blew it, queuing for a coffee🙈🙈🙈

7 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Why would a picture of a group of people queuing at a sports shop negate any message given by BLM about systemic racism?

Because they weren't queuing,  they were practically fighting to get in there, some had masks, some didn't.  So if they aren't concerned for each others health and safety,  why should we feel concerned?

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Mice! said:

Well that's good.

I said I got your point, that's different to agreeing with you 😉 

You were doing well but then blew it, queuing for a coffee🙈🙈🙈

Read what I wrote, not what you wanted / expected to see written. Costco is a kind of cash and carry, they do sell coffee but the last time I went I bought 680 tea bags, amongst other things...

It has something to do with five adults in the household, a disabled relative living in the smoke and ederly FiL out by the coast who all need supplies. Thankfully my mum has mastered online shopping orders 🙂 

PS - I don't recall the direction not to travel, I thought there was notification of an impending lock down and lots of people rushed to the mountains - might be wrong but the opposite cause and effect scenario to the one you described. If I'd be conscious the advice / instruction was not to travel then I wouldn't even of considered it tbh.

[grrclark]

10 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Because they weren't queuing,  they were practically fighting to get in there, some had masks, some didn't.  So if they aren't concerned for each others health and safety,  why should we feel concerned?

The orderliness of the queue or otherwise, even if it was a bit of a scrum, what has that got to do with BLM?

Is it because the queue was mostly black folk?

16 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Kinda debunks the very flawed notion that racism in the UK is very very rare too. Served on a plate in the very same thread.

Unquestionably so.  The fact that the transgressors are completely ignorant/ambivalent to the message they convey also proves there is indeed systemic racism, even if it is meant with no intent to discriminate.

[Mice!]

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

It has something to do with five adults in the household, a disabled relative living in the smoke and ederly FiL out by the coast who all need supplies. Thankfully my mum has mastered online shopping orders 🙂 

PS - I don't recall the direction not to travel, I thought there was notification of an impending lock down and lots of people rushed to the mountains - might be wrong but the opposite cause and effect scenario to the one you described. If I'd be conscious the advice / instruction was not to travel then I wouldn't even of considered it tbh.

I read it as Costa, so that's my fault, I'll go and stand in the corner.

I'm sure they the gov asked people the weekend of Mothers day, dont go out, they asked nicely instead of stating don't. 

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2020/03/23/what-the-papers-say-march-23/

Which then lead to the lockdown. 

[Dave-G]

46 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Who is “they”?

Do you mean the queue of people ignoring any concern of personal safeguarding regard corona virus or do you specifically mean the “BAME people” that you referred to earlier?

I think you know full well what I meant but are trying to lead me into saying more than I ought.

"They" being the queue of people ignoring any concern of personal safeguarding regard corona virus - who also looked (at a glance) to consist mainly of the very BAME people that are prone to being more susceptible to the corona virus but seemingly demostrating that getting NIKE gear is more important than the risk of virus transmission that is also being made a meal of.

 

EDIT: I concede it is nothing to do with the London demos but is worthy of mention non the less given that the thread has drifted a little of topic. I also seem to have got my threads mixed up - sorry.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Dave-G

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Mice! said:

I read it as Costa, so that's my fault, I'll go and stand in the corner.

I'm sure they the gov asked people the weekend of Mothers day, dont go out, they asked nicely instead of stating don't. 

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2020/03/23/what-the-papers-say-march-23/

Which then lead to the lockdown. 

I thought the don't go out on mothers day instruction related to meals and visits indoors to vulnerable relatives.

You honestly bought into the lock down warnings!? viz, you don't think the decision to do so had already been made?

Are you also forgetting that it was all down to interpretation and you could have just claimed the "Dom amendment" if challenged?

Again, I don't see how people from the same household jumping in their cars and popping to Snowdonia led to lockdown. 

[grrclark]

3 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

I think you know full well what I meant but are trying to lead me into saying more than I ought.

What do you mean? Get off the fence and say it outright if you believe it to be true.

[Mice!]

17 minutes ago, grrclark said:

The orderliness of the queue or otherwise, even if it was a bit of a scrum, what has that got to do with BLM?

Is it because the queue was mostly black folk?

Yes its because those pushing trying to get in first are mostly black lads, so do they think BLM?

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/15/hundreds-push-shove-get-nike-town-oxford-circus-reopens-12854694/

I haven't seen any other pictures of this sort of thing, just long ques of people stood on spots two metres apart, waiting to get into the shops

[Dave-G]

2 minutes ago, grrclark said:

What do you mean? Get off the fence and say it outright if you believe it to be true.

I've said what i wanted to say - and rather foolishly concede I have got a photo I've seen elsewhere mixed up - or cross threaded if you like.

 

[Mice!]

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I thought the don't go out on mothers day instruction related to meals and visits indoors to vulnerable relatives.

You honestly bought into the lock down warnings!? viz, you don't think the decision to do so had already been made?

Are you also forgetting that it was all down to interpretation and you could have just claimed the "Dom amendment" if challenged?

Again, I don't see how people from the same household jumping in their cars and popping to Snowdonia led to lockdown. 

Of course it was down to interpretation,  but when the news is showing nothing but coronavirus in Europe killing people, surely you think twice before going where masses of others will be?

Now I'm off out, so I'll cat h up later.

[Raja Clavata]

8 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Unquestionably so.  The fact that the transgressors are completely ignorant/ambivalent to the message they convey also proves there is indeed systemic racism, even if it is meant with no intent to discriminate.

If racism equates to ignorance then ignorance of ignorance is like ignorance squared, either way I don't think it's a credible defence.

Just now, Mice! said:

Of course it was down to interpretation,  but when the news is showing nothing but coronavirus in Europe killing people, surely you think twice before going where masses of others will be?

Now I'm off out, so I'll cat h up later.

North Wales mountains vs. football games or horse racing, I know where I'd prefer to take my chances 👍

[islandgun]

37 minutes ago, grrclark said:

The orderliness of the queue or otherwise, even if it was a bit of a scrum, what has that got to do with BLM?

Is it because the queue was mostly black folk?

Unquestionably so.  The fact that the transgressors are completely ignorant/ambivalent to the message they convey also proves there is indeed systemic racism, even if it is meant with no intent to discriminate.

Very sound points, Im now wondering if i am racist [although i have spent my life deploring racism] I too saw black youths in a scrum at the sports shop, perhaps in the same way as i might have registered it if the people were fat/ thin, old/ young, male/ female , beautiful/plain,  I freely admit that this has raised a few points about my perception of others...mmmm

[grrclark]

28 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Yes its because those pushing trying to get in first are mostly black lads, so do they think BLM?

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/15/hundreds-push-shove-get-nike-town-oxford-circus-reopens-12854694/

I haven't seen any other pictures of this sort of thing, just long ques of people stood on spots two metres apart, waiting to get into the shops

Do they conflate their ethnicity or racial identity with their behaviour at trying to get into a shop?  Or are they just a group of folk whose interest is in buying some Nike produce is foremost in their minds over anything else?

When you do anything at all do you conflate your racial identity with what you are doing?  I certainly don’t, why should the folk in that picture feel different?

 

[bluesj]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Weirdly enough , they did resign , over the sacking of the 2 officers, about 60 of them.

Weirdly you are almost right 57 resigned from that unit not the police and not because the 2 cop got the boot but because their union said that they will not give them any backing

[AVB]

8 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Do they conflate their ethnicity or racial identity with their behaviour at trying to get into a shop?  Or are they just a group of folk whose interest is in buying some Nike produce is foremost in their minds over anything else?

When you do anything at all do you conflate your racial identity with what you are doing?  I certainly don’t, why should the folk in that picture feel different?

 

I am completely lost as to where this thread is going. I interpreted the post as being along the lines of “you would think that the BAME people in the scrum outside Nike would be more considerate of their health considering that CV-19 has a greater impact within the BAME community”. Is that racist? 

[Dave-G]

18 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Very sound points, Im now wondering if i am racist [although i have spent my life deploring racism] I too saw black youths in a scrum at the sports shop, perhaps in the same way as i might have registered it if the people were fat/ thin, old/ young, male/ female , beautiful/plain,  I freely admit that this has raised a few points about my perception of others...mmmm

There is nothing racist about seeing a bunch of black guys scruming up close and personal to a force open a shop door in the time of virus distancing.

If the crowd was of mixed ethnicity nobody would have thought they were all blacks. Some people just can't help playing a race card where there is simply no need of trash like that. 

I'm done with this topic now its blatantly obvious people are implying racism where its not present. all the blokes at that shop front are black. Anyone who can deny it is fair to collectively refer to them as a group of black guys have something wrong with them in my opinion.

[grrclark]

26 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Very sound points, Im now wondering if i am racist [although i have spent my life deploring racism] I too saw black youths in a scrum at the sports shop, perhaps in the same way as i might have registered it if the people were fat/ thin, old/ young, male/ female , beautiful/plain,  I freely admit that this has raised a few points about my perception of others...mmmm

For what it is worth I also saw a group of black faces, but that also factually represents the reality of the situation.

Does that make either of us racist? No, i don’t believe it does, but it does explain why there is a reasonable claim from the BAME community that there is an ingrained sense of differentiation towards black/coloured faces by an otherwise predominantly white society, if that is what we see and identify first.

The big question is whether we judge people on the basis of their race or behaviour.

The folk in the scrum are knobs for behaving like they did, not because of the colour of their skin.  I have no doubt at all that you agree with me on that.

[henry d]

A lot of presumption going on, lots of people saying, how can they do this or that, when I am pretty sure people have been leaned over or had people brush past when shopping or out walking? 

A scrum outside a shop is one thing, a BLM march is another AND the two may not match up no matter what your viewpoint is.