Self Build /barn conversions

[Teal]

Have just got planning permission to convert a number of our agricultural buildings to residential. I am looking into the economics of trying to self build, rather than just sell the sites. Does anyone have experience with this. I would like to get some initial costings from builders, but I am conscious that without a detailed spec it may be difficult to compare quotations on a like-for-like basis.

I have the original drawings from the planning consultant showing layout, but it does not detail much. I am thinking of engaging a QS to give a bit more detail on spec and costings. Anyone have any advice or suggestions please say, would be v keen to hear! Thanks!

[Lloyd90]

My Mrs parents did it on a plot they had... as they were not builders they said every week the builders or trade men came up with more and more excuses that the job would go on longer or cost more and more than initially agreed. 
 

They had to go along with it as they had all their money tied up. 
 

They managed to build two houses they had but made less than planned and and said it was a nightmare... they still have a massive plot with planning for several more houses and said they’re just going to sell the plot to a builder / developer who’ll do it themselves as it’s far too much bother. 
 

If your a builder yourself I imagine it’s not too bad. 

[old'un]

This maybe more than what you had in mind but the buildings I have seen from these people were of a very high standard…https://www.borderoak.com/

[discobob]

Get a German house (or houses) - you just need the footings and slab and the facilities to the plots. The house comes on the back of a lorry, a crane comes along and they supply the workmen. A neighbour has one - really impressive - it isn't a Grand Designs Huf Hause but it is still nice - He said they had them on "islands" on a lake Bavaria way and they pulled in the one you want to look at. The houses can be modified in any way you want - but each extension in size had be by the metre or something like that for the factory to make it.

 

[Scully]

21 minutes ago, discobob said:

Get a German house (or houses) - you just need the footings and slab and the facilities to the plots. The house comes on the back of a lorry, a crane comes along and they supply the workmen. A neighbour has one - really impressive - it isn't a Grand Designs Huf Hause but it is still nice - He said they had them on "islands" on a lake Bavaria way and they pulled in the one you want to look at. The houses can be modified in any way you want - but each extension in size had be by the metre or something like that for the factory to make it.

 

Are you referring to Passiv or Tradis? 

[oldypigeonpopper]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

My Mrs parents did it on a plot they had... as they were not builders they said every week the builders or trade men came up with more and more excuses that the job would go on longer or cost more and more than initially agreed. 
 

They had to go along with it as they had all their money tied up. 
 

They managed to build two houses they had but made less than planned and and said it was a nightmare... they still have a massive plot with planning for several more houses and said they’re just going to sell the plot to a builder / developer who’ll do it themselves as it’s far too much bother. 
 

If your a builder yourself I imagine it’s not too bad. 

Hello I agree on builders my son has just been scammed by a local builder, I would say get a recommended project manager 

[Teal]

They have to be conversions, so have to work with what we have on site. Noted on the concerns re: project delivery and costs, definitely something to think hard about.

[Walker570]

Yes, do your homework on the builder insist on looking at his previous five years work.   Our barn conversion and modifications to our side where done to a very high standard and the buyer of the barn did his homework. Everything was costed and the quality of the work exceptional.  However our next door neighbours sold their barn to a fly by night builder and I saw what went into it and was not surprised that withing a few years the new owners started having problems...chimney smoking..badly built..... woodwork rotting both inside and out etc etc.  All done on the cheap.  You would be hard pushed to realise that our barbecue area was not part of the original cowshed(now double garage) so it was not expensive in the end.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Walker570

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello I agree on builders my son has just been scammed by a local builder, I would say get a recommended project manager 

A project manager will cost, and it won't be an insignificant cost, and they wont necessarily be a builder. Mostly they handle the logistics of the build;  you're in effect paying someone to order materials and trades in the correct sequence and quantities, which you can do yourself. The entire point of a self build is to do away with all the superfluous cost expense. It all depends on how you value your time really. 

You can even price it out yourself at say for example.....100.00 quid per square metre? I'm not sure what todays going rate is, and much depends on the type of build also. 

11 minutes ago, Teal said:

They have to be conversions, so have to work with what we have on site. Noted on the concerns re: project delivery and costs, definitely something to think hard about.

Listed? Conservation area? Like for like? Lime plaster/render? 

[Lord v]

Conversions are a ****** to price without full designs or intrusive surveys . 

Very easy to sink ££££ into fixing problems you didn't see coming, running suitable utilities and disposing of what comes out of a building. You will need a healthy risk pot. 

How well worked up are the planning drawings? There is a world of difference between a planning drawing and a working drawing. 

I could give you some rates for internal fit outs but you may still be sinking a healthy amount into the ground. 

[scobydog]

All I would say is don't be afraid to do it yourself Teal, I did a 20m long x 5m wide extension on my house.  Did everything myself except for rendering the outside and my mate signed the electrics off. 

Bloody hard work but worth it money wise, saved 55k on the lowest quote off a builder.  It's got a living room,  kitchen,  bedroom and large en suite bathroom. Pic of it here.

[Westley78]

Hi Teal,

I am a Chartered Surveyor and regularly prepare cost plans for clients, if you want to DM the drawings I’ll happily take a look for you 👍🏻
 

kind regards

west

[millrace]

Honestly take the easy money and move on happy with your profits....

A new build is easy,an extension to existing even easier,converting totally different

best way to explain it is new build,,,dig trench pour concrete build walls fit roof simple,,,, 

Conversions....chip plaster look at wall realize it has no foundation and its holding a roof and theres a crack you didnt know was there,,,,now what do you do...you wont know because your not a builder so now you have to trust what your being told with no way of knowing if the costs are right or if there are alternatives....

Not meaning to be smart or put you off,,the way I see it anybody and everybody probably can do my job when all is good,,, but heres the thing,,when theres a problem I've got the experience to get round it and that's where a proper builder/contractor comes into his own....to me it's not a problem just a solution I've got  to find.....

[WalkedUp]

@Teal a number of my clients do this. Some have been great, especially those with lots of contacts to call favours in from. You need to make sure you have good construction information before you start. Pay a decent architect and engineer to get good, detailed drawings with specifications. It then becomes an assembly process. Conversions of barns etc are more expensive than new build. I would allow £1500/m2 for your budget, creation of a new dwelling so should be reduced rate of VAT (5%) but get financial advice as it can be difficult to get HMRC to clarify.

[millrace]

Hmrc wont clarify...its up to you to decide then argue your way of interpreting their vat rules,then hope they dont read it differently......lol

[discobob]

6 hours ago, Scully said:

Are you referring to Passiv or Tradis? 

After a google I think it was Hanse Haus. I can’t ask him as he is stuck in the US!!

[oowee]

It is important to look at the opportunity cost of doing this work yourself.  Sure it would be possible to save money but what could you be doing otherwise and how long will it take you? Sometimes it's better to settle for a smaller return to get the money in the bank to make it work for you. I have turned down a house purchase as there was no end date for the completion of work on the neighbouring conversion. 

[Nuke]

12 hours ago, Scully said:

A project manager will cost, and it won't be an insignificant cost, and they wont necessarily be a builder. Mostly they handle the logistics of the build;  you're in effect paying someone to order materials and trades in the correct sequence and quantities, which you can do yourself.

I project manage for a living so I guess I'm biased but all large jobs gets easier to handle with detailed plans to start with and then you also can do your risk assesment and some mitigation planning as well.

Better put the money in early and be prepared than being left to handle stuff on the fly later on. Estimate that the engineering/planning cost is app 10% of the total cost of the project, more if you use inexperienced resources.

/Markus

Edited June 3, 2020 by Nuke

[WalkedUp]

1 hour ago, Nuke said:

I project manage for a living so I guess I'm biased but all large jobs gets easier to handle with detailed plans to start with and then you also can do your risk assesment and some mitigation planning as well.

Better put the money in early and be prepared than being left to handle stuff on the fly later on. Estimate that the engineering/planning cost is app 10% of the total cost of the project, more if you use inexperienced resources.

/Markus

Agree 

[team tractor]

I’ll point out the main problems they gave down the line is damp and needing tanking and also using softwood windows . Within 10 years they’re rotten. 

[WalkedUp]

Another point to think of is the CML requirement for a 10 year warranty. 

[Scully]

4 hours ago, Nuke said:

I project manage for a living so I guess I'm biased but all large jobs gets easier to handle with detailed plans to start with and then you also can do your risk assesment and some mitigation planning as well.

Better put the money in early and be prepared than being left to handle stuff on the fly later on. Estimate that the engineering/planning cost is app 10% of the total cost of the project, more if you use inexperienced resources.

/Markus

Fair enough. It wasn’t meant to offend, just based on experience of working with many PM’s over the years. 
 

10 hours ago, discobob said:

After a google I think it was Hanse Haus. I can’t ask him as he is stuck in the US!!

👍 

[Nuke]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

Fair enough. It wasn’t meant to offend, just based on experience of working with many PM’s over the years. 

None taken, there are project managers and then there are project managers same as any other trade. Building is not really my field, I design and build large power plants and paper/pulp mills, so I was only trying to give the OP a general figure on what he could try and save, and the risks/benefits involved, if he is contemplating taking on the job himself. No argument intended.

/M

Edited June 3, 2020 by Nuke

[Teal]

On 02/06/2020 at 16:51, Scully said:

Listed? Conservation area? Like for like? Lime plaster/render? 

No, none of those really. It's just the type of planning we went for is prior approval (class Q) for ag buildings and so it requires the building to be structurally sound, capable and suitable for conversion, and a few other conditions you have to satisfy. So you have to use what you have, but you are allowed to make alterations subject to them being "conversion" and not "rebuild".

Plenty of very helpful comments on here. I'm going to let it all sink-in and just gather more information at this stage. Big decision really. I'm waiting on an agent to give me an idea of site values / finished values. Which will help a lot, as it will give an idea where the developer 'profit' might be, and to what extent I can justify doing the build. It wouldn't be DIY, I would get a firm in to do it. But just that it would happen under my control/expense. Appreciate that new builds much simpler, but just have to work with what have.

[Eyefor]

We got Class Q for three barns totalling about 1200 M2 and were advised by our (superb) professional planning consultants to go straight back in for full residential planning permission which was granted very quickly.

Be prepared for changes. You learn as you go and I would recommend getting quotes with itemised prices for different parts of the build which you pre-agree with your builder you can remove from his quote as it progresses and have done by others. We had the foundations, drainage, sewerage treatment plant, walls and roof trusses done by one builder. Others are separately doing the electrics, windows & doors,  heating / hot water, roof covering, kitchen, decorating and landscaping.

Also be very careful your architect draws what you want and not what he wants; make sure your builder builds likewise, owns a tape measure and can read a drawing and (most importantly) be on site every day that work goes on. We were also recommended not to use the Council's building control department but outsource to one of the specialist organisations who are cheaper and more interested in helping.  

It is also hugely important that you fully understand the H&S responsibilities if you have more than one trade on site. One trade is automatically the main contractor and must accept that responsibility.

I would highly recommend the Self Build 1 day course in Swindon at The National Self Build & Renovation Centre https://www.nsbrc.co.uk/ which is worth a visit anyway.

Separately, we have a wizard of a VAT lady who specialises in self builds. PM me if you want her details and send me your email address if you want a mountain of info on most of the things you'll need.

Keep smiling.....

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Eyefor