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mgsontour

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I've got nice lab bitch, with good working lines and want a big sized stud dog and can't find one I like in my area, is there a forum where to put an advert or find available dogs? Cheers

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Find a dog with similar lines if you want to recreate the good points of your dog... line breeding, not just any old dog. 

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Depends what you mean by big. I would recommend having a look at some of the triallers up here in Scotland. Recommend Billy Steel, Lee Hartis and Kirsty Cousins. All seem to have some good sized dogs. 

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27 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Find a dog with similar lines if you want to recreate the good points of your dog... line breeding, not just any old dog. 

Would not agree with this. 
 

the Kc has a mate select section where you input details of stud and dam and it will tell you how closely related they are. 
The breed average for labs is 6.5%. 

I’d be looking at a dog with health results similar to this. 
 

https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/1419564-perfect-conformation-0-0-hips-0-0-elbows-dnas-doncaster.html

 

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1 hour ago, WelshAndy said:

Would not agree with this. 
 

the Kc has a mate select section where you input details of stud and dam and it will tell you how closely related they are. 
The breed average for labs is 6.5%. 

I’d be looking at a dog with health results similar to this. 
 

https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/1419564-perfect-conformation-0-0-hips-0-0-elbows-dnas-doncaster.html

 


You don’t agree with line breeding? 🤔

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No I don’t. 

Why line breed - inbreed when there of plenty of quality dogs out there that aren’t related??

plus there’s risks of health issues from closely breeding dogs. 

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6 hours ago, WelshAndy said:

No I don’t. 

Why line breed - inbreed when there of plenty of quality dogs out there that aren’t related??

plus there’s risks of health issues from closely breeding dogs. 

 

That's not what line breeding is. Your talking about inbreeding. 

Inbreeding is where you breed dogs too closely related (eg brother and sister). 

Line breeding is linking up similar lines that go back a few generations to hopefully bring on the desired characteristics you want. If your considering breeding your dog in the first place it must surely be proven in the field and have characteristics that you want to carry onto the pups. 

Healthy testing means you can ensure pups have no health conditions. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

That's not what line breeding is. Your talking about inbreeding. 

Inbreeding is where you breed dogs too closely related (eg brother and sister). 

Line breeding is linking up similar lines that go back a few generations to hopefully bring on the desired characteristics you want. If your considering breeding your dog in the first place it must surely be proven in the field and have characteristics that you want to carry onto the pups. 

Healthy testing means you can ensure pups have no health conditions. 

 

 

I know exactly what all the terminology means Lloyd...

 

Line breeding is in breeding. 
 

You have your thought I have mine. 

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If line-bred dogs inherited only their parents’ best features there would be no problem but, alas, they get the bad ones, too. This greatly increases the chances of genetic defects and hereditary diseases being passed on to successive generations. Inbred animals also suffer from poor reproductive performance and are seldom as robust or long-lived as those that have been out-bred.

It’s now possible for breeders to avoid inbreeding by using The Kennel Club’s excellent Mate Select program, developed in conjunction with the Animal Health Trust. Mate Select reveals an individual dog’s inbreeding coefficient, or CoI, plus that for the breed in general. Enter the dog’s full registered name into the Mate Select website, click on genetic diversity and the CoI is displayed.

The CoI is hugely revealing. For example, a CoI of 12.5% indicates that there is a one in eight chance that a dog will inherit the same version of a gene from the same dog that appears in both the sire’s and dam’s pedigree. The puppies born to a mother/son, father/daughter or brother/sister mating would be at least 25%, while the CoI of puppies resulting from a grandfather/granddaughter mating would be at least 12.5%. From a health viewpoint, the lower the CoI the better.

Checking the CoI of several leading studs from working gundog kennels makes depressing reading. With few exceptions, the figures are above the breed average, some considerably so. This reflects the impact that popular stud dogs – usually championship winners – have had on a particular breed. It’s not unusual for the same stud dog’s name to appear several times on both sides of a dog’s five-generation pedigree.

Sorry you are talking to someone who is quite passionate about the subject. 

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4 minutes ago, WelshAndy said:

If line-bred dogs inherited only their parents’ best features there would be no problem but, alas, they get the bad ones, too. This greatly increases the chances of genetic defects and hereditary diseases being passed on to successive generations. Inbred animals also suffer from poor reproductive performance and are seldom as robust or long-lived as those that have been out-bred.

It’s now possible for breeders to avoid inbreeding by using The Kennel Club’s excellent Mate Select program, developed in conjunction with the Animal Health Trust. Mate Select reveals an individual dog’s inbreeding coefficient, or CoI, plus that for the breed in general. Enter the dog’s full registered name into the Mate Select website, click on genetic diversity and the CoI is displayed.

The CoI is hugely revealing. For example, a CoI of 12.5% indicates that there is a one in eight chance that a dog will inherit the same version of a gene from the same dog that appears in both the sire’s and dam’s pedigree. The puppies born to a mother/son, father/daughter or brother/sister mating would be at least 25%, while the CoI of puppies resulting from a grandfather/granddaughter mating would be at least 12.5%. From a health viewpoint, the lower the CoI the better.

Checking the CoI of several leading studs from working gundog kennels makes depressing reading. With few exceptions, the figures are above the breed average, some considerably so. This reflects the impact that popular stud dogs – usually championship winners – have had on a particular breed. It’s not unusual for the same stud dog’s name to appear several times on both sides of a dog’s five-generation pedigree.

Sorry you are talking to someone who is quite passionate about the subject. 

 

Yes they can get both good and bad characteristics, hence a lot of very soft or quirky dogs around from prolific studs. Some of the big genetic conditions can be ruled out with good health testing. COI comes into it (I don't know enough about it myselt) so will bow to your knowledge Andy... point I was trying to make is, someone should perhaps spend a bit of time looking at their dogs pedigree, look at the good characteristics they want to enhance and then look for a stud who has similar good traits and marries up well to their bitch.

Recently have been seeing people asking for stud dogs and their main concerns is how far they will have to drive ... no thought gone into the choosing of the stud and why they should use that one. 

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No need to bow... like I said you have your thought I have mine. 
 

personally with the many thousands of well bred Labradors out there I would be more concerned with good health tests and low COI. 
 

stay safe :good:

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On 06/06/2020 at 19:23, WelshAndy said:


The breed average for labs is 6.5%. 

 

You'll be hard pushed to find a working Labrador with no show lines in it with a COI as low as this, I'd suspect that the working dog average is somewhere between 8 & 10%. I'd regard my dog as being pretty low as he's 7.3%.

I'd also be wary of anything statistics wise produced from myKC. It's riddled with errors as everything is inputted by hand, including hereditary health tests for new litters. I've also noticed their COI figures differ from those given on K9 data.

On 06/06/2020 at 19:23, WelshAndy said:

You'd want to have an sd2 clear bitch if you were to use this dog 😉😉

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On 06/06/2020 at 20:02, WelshAndy said:

Plenty of decent dogs out there - sure Levenghyl Malusi is up your way :good:

Cracking dog is Malusi. We had pups by him in December & they're very nice, biddable & like hunting.

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If u are going to line breed ( and there is merit to it in some cases)

U really have to know ur stuff, genetics and lines, wot throws wot and also know how as many pups from the lines are doing, both health and workability.

Probably far easier in past when most dogs would stay fairly local and if any health problems show up everyone soon gets to hear about them.

And the owners would have enough sense not to breed from them.

 

I don't think that many people now really have the knowledge to line breed and with dogs moving so far probably don't get the feedback either.

Probably best avoided unless u really know ur stuff.

 

Have been lucky to be in a few beating howfs with some great trainers that can list dogs and there pedigrees way back in to 70s and who won wot sired by this or that. Their knowledge is unbelievable.

 

I'd stick to a dog u like the look off that has strong points where ur bitch is weak and not related.

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