Rewulf Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/jun/18/well-meet-again-vera-lynn-pop-masterpiece-second-world-war?fbclid=IwAR0xVJfcBSrPWRXWUC3Rama9eZytJOPdobpSdTdr_81zmHwenq-rs5GYiA0 They must have started writing the piece as soon as her death was announced. I struggle to see the reasoning behind using her passing to have a dig at British culture, values ect. Do all guardian readers share some sort of inbuilt guilt complex about being British ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 Probably had it written already. We watched the tribute show last night, nothing but praise for her showing clips of performances during the war and in modern times. From the BBC no less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkfanz Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 usual garbage from a dipstick reporter,independant puts out the same rubbish.there not in the real world.a bit like lewis hamilton spouting off blm,but takes millions in salary from a company that used jewish slave labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yates Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 No mate. They will have started writing that months/years before her death in preparation for her demise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam triple Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 Leftish paper say no more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, sam triple said: Leftish paper say no more Ish! Awful rag with a growing reputation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocette Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/06/17/thousands-sign-petition-shut-down-guardian-links-slavery-anti-lincoln-propaganda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 7 minutes ago, Velocette said: https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/06/17/thousands-sign-petition-shut-down-guardian-links-slavery-anti-lincoln-propaganda/ 😁.. wheres the petition ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 I am surprised that you are so insecure about the merits of our great country. Most can see the problems for the country now given the headless chickens running the flock now and a little healthy criticism never went amiss. I can understand that honesty can be a difficult medicine to take but you can always dilute it with a bit of Daily Mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 13 minutes ago, Velocette said: https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/06/17/thousands-sign-petition-shut-down-guardian-links-slavery-anti-lincoln-propaganda/ That's hilarious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Rewulf said: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/jun/18/well-meet-again-vera-lynn-pop-masterpiece-second-world-war?fbclid=IwAR0xVJfcBSrPWRXWUC3Rama9eZytJOPdobpSdTdr_81zmHwenq-rs5GYiA0 They must have started writing the piece as soon as her death was announced. I struggle to see the reasoning behind using her passing to have a dig at British culture, values ect. Do all guardian readers share some sort of inbuilt guilt complex about being British ? I read it twice and don't see anything offensive or particularly troublesome with the article. That said I read and interpret it on the basis of the words contained therein without bias or pre-judgement based on the source. The first key take for me is that her passing is the end of an era, which I agree with. At the end of an era, it would be logical to look back on it and reflect. The second key take is that as a nation, and quite possibly representative of public opinion by a small majority, we continue to live in the past... PS - Having read it, does that make you a Guardian reader? Edited June 19, 2020 by Raja Clavata without Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 15 minutes ago, oowee said: I am surprised that you are so insecure about the merits of our great country. Im not , its people who , like I said seem embarrassed of it , the sort of people who seem to think we cant survive without the EU to 'guide' us . 17 minutes ago, oowee said: a little healthy criticism never went amiss. 'The song’s magic lay in its poignancy – the very quality that has led to Britain’s parochial obsession with the second world war' 'In a sense, and this is not to be disrespectful to her memory, she was in the right place at the right time. She was by no means a great singer.' Nice. 21 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: PS - Having read it, does that make you a Guardian reader? I knew someone would say that 😏 22 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: The first key take for me is that her passing is the end of an era, which I agree with. At the end of an era, it would be logical to look back on it and reflect. The second key take is that as a nation, and quite possibly representative of public opinion by a small majority, we continue to live in the past... Do we ..really ? Reflecting on the times and values of the past, isnt necessarily 'living' in it , its about learning from it. I dont see anything to be embarrassed about in doing that, but the guardian, in its efforts to be woke and progressive, seems to want to cultivate shame on the generations that have come after, as if we somehow have to pay for whatever thought crimes our ancestors did as they fought for survival , and the right to spawn the likes of the journo who used the death of a national icon to promote this strange ideology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 Good solid values from days gone past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpringDon Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 Actually, I agree with a bit of it - one of the most moving uses of the song was at the end of dr.strangelove. As for living in the past, I’m all for that. So we can stop banging on about slavery, colonialism and the eu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 40 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: The second key take is that as a nation, and quite possibly representative of public opinion by a small majority, we continue to live in the past... Like all those making demands about things from two hundred years ago, which nobody alive was involved with? I certainly think keeping talking about world war 2 is a good thing, it was the last global event that shook the world, imagine if things had gone differently? Covid could have been the next event but it's thankfully not looking like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 (edited) My thoughts are pretty much in line with Raja, having read the article I don't see anything in there that is overly troublesome. It is an alternative take on things and a chance to do a bit of government bashing, but let's be honest finding genuine reason to bash the government right now is hardly a challenge, same goes for the mob in Scotland too who do of course follow a different ideology, so my comment is not made from a position of political bias. Like all developed and mature societies there is always going to be an element who look backwards and wish to turn the clock back, it has always been thus and will always be thus. In the times of the industrial revolution the luddites destroyed the machines as they saw that march of progress as damaging to their values. The luddites of today are different, but with no less zeal in their desire to keep things as they were. The machine they are trying to smash is much more complex however. Likewise in all developed and mature societies there are people who hold to different ideologies or philosophies, it is a luxury born from living through a period of stability and having your fundamental needs met. In times of hardship the focus becomes somewhat more tactical around day to day living and much less strategic. Ideological journalists on both sides of the political spectrum are polemists who seek to inspire the wider conversation and they are obviously effective at it otherwise this thread would not exist. Edited June 19, 2020 by grrclark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Im not , its people who , like I said seem embarrassed of it , the sort of people who seem to think we cant survive without the EU to 'guide' us . Well, if the UK death toll from COVID is anything to go by... I knew someone would say that 😏 A rather obvious point / observation, I agree Do we ..really ? Reflecting on the times and values of the past, isnt necessarily 'living' in it , its about learning from it. I dont see anything to be embarrassed about in doing that, but the guardian, in its efforts to be woke and progressive, seems to want to cultivate shame on the generations that have come after, as if we somehow have to pay for whatever thought crimes our ancestors did as they fought for survival , and the right to spawn the likes of the journo who used the death of a national icon to promote this strange ideology. It's also about drawing a line under it and moving on. What a good number of us "Remainers" have done recently. I didn't pick up on an attempt to cultivate shame nor anything to be embarrassed or angry about, unless it touched a nerve, maybe... My analysis of the article wasn't biased by any preconceived notions of political leaning, woke, progressive, snowflake, precious or anything else. Again, I think we should all be in awe of the challenges and suffering that ensued in defeating the Nazis, I will forever hold that generation in the very highest regard. Just now, Mice! said: Like all those making demands about things from two hundred years ago, which nobody alive was involved with? That wasn't even implied in the article, why people respond to / justify one "bad" with another is beyond me, let's stick to topic - this is about post war Britain and a hypothesis that we cling onto the past (and war cry's seem to do the trick with the public). No? I certainly think keeping talking about world war 2 is a good thing, it was the last global event that shook the world, imagine if things had gone differently? I'm not sure everybody on the globe would agree with that, but anyway. Covid could have been the next event but it's thankfully not looking like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 7 minutes ago, grrclark said: My thoughts are pretty much in line with Raja, having read the article I don't see anything in there that is overly troublesome. The troublesome part is the way they have used her passing as an excuse to have a dig at the era she came from. I got the feeling he would have been more harsh on her and the values of her day, but found a modicum of respect , and edited out the more cutting remarks, directing them instead at others , like Churchill. 10 minutes ago, grrclark said: In the times of the industrial revolution the luddites destroyed the machines as they saw that march of progress as damaging to their values. Except it had nothing to do with values, the new tech was costing them their jobs, and in the early 19 th century that meant the workhouse , or starving. Their 'values' were survival. 13 minutes ago, grrclark said: The luddites of today are different, but with no less zeal in their desire to keep things as they were. Im not sure who you are referring to here ? 4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Well, if the UK death toll from COVID is anything to go by... Per capita , we are virtually no different from the rest of the EU , so ..they are no example to follow. 5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: It's also about drawing a line under it and moving on. What a good number of us "Remainers" have done recently. A 'good number' of people who voted remain moved on as soon as the vote direction was obvious, it didnt stop others , and still hasnt. 8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I didn't pick up on an attempt to cultivate shame nor anything to be embarrassed or angry about, unless it touched a nerve, maybe... My analysis of the article wasn't biased by any preconceived notions of political leaning, woke, progressive, snowflake, precious or anything else. Again, I think we should all be in awe of the challenges and suffering that ensued in defeating the Nazis, I will forever hold that generation in the very highest regard. So you didnt really pick up much negativity or blase attitude towards 'that generation' from the piece ?? 9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: That wasn't even implied in the article, It was really though wasnt it? , colonialism , empire ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 Just now, Rewulf said: The troublesome part is the way they have used her passing as an excuse to have a dig at the era she came from. I got the feeling he would have been more harsh on her and the values of her day, but found a modicum of respect , and edited out the more cutting remarks, directing them instead at others , like Churchill. I don't think he was having a dig at her at all or the era that she came from. I think he was having a dig at the way she has been used a totem for many causes, the iconolatry of her having been appropriated to suit the narrative of a cause if you like, ironically exactly as he had done with his own article. His comments around Churchill I see as being the same. Churchill is a polarising figure, for a great many he is celebrated as being the figurehead of standing against the wave of fascism, for others, in India in particular, he is little better than fascist himself. So the author uses that polarised image of Churchill to highlight how his image can and has been appropriated to suit a narrative. Again there is a great degree of irony as he is doing the same to peddle his message. That is true of anything that is released into the public domain. The arts are the living embodiment of how the perceived vision or meaning behind someone's output can be the polar opposite to how it was intended to be. The writer's contention in that Guardian piece about DVL was exactly that, what was originally something uplifting and full of hope has been in a way twisted to suit the narrative of those who seek to champion a different cause. The perfect example and counterpoint to that article in the Guardian would be how those who choose to challenge the colonial past of GB use the icons of that era as their weapons of the current day. The original intent of the statues was not the same as how they are chosen to be interpreted now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Rewulf said: The troublesome part is the way they have used her passing as an excuse to have a dig at the era she came from. I got the feeling he would have been more harsh on her and the values of her day, but found a modicum of respect , and edited out the more cutting remarks, directing them instead at others , like Churchill. Except it had nothing to do with values, the new tech was costing them their jobs, and in the early 19 th century that meant the workhouse , or starving. Their 'values' were survival. Im not sure who you are referring to here ? Per capita , we are virtually no different from the rest of the EU , so ..they are no example to follow. A 'good number' of people who voted remain moved on as soon as the vote direction was obvious, it didnt stop others , and still hasnt. So you didnt really pick up much negativity or blase attitude towards 'that generation' from the piece ?? It was really though wasnt it? , colonialism , empire ..... Reflect my thoughts also. Interesting fact r.e the workhouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 47 minutes ago, Rewulf said: So you didnt really pick up much negativity or blase attitude towards 'that generation' from the piece ?? Nope It was really though wasnt it? , colonialism , empire ..... Maybe a little bit, I would say more to do with the fact that we had the "resources" of the Empire / Commonwealth to pull upon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 31 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Maybe a little bit, I would say more to do with the fact that we had the "resources" of the Empire / Commonwealth to pull upon. Its a good job the authors much despised Empire/Commonwealth WAS there to pull upon..Or he would probably been writing a very different article, in German,with a swastika at the top of the page. At least we wouldnt have to cope with shame of our colonial past then , as it would most likely have been erased from history, a bit like how some are trying to do now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 27 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I think that's talking down what the brave men and women of the UK ,who stood up to Hitler did at that time. There were many calling for us not to get involved, as they rightly pointed out, we were unlikely to be able to win it at that point,but the likes of Churchill and other great people, stood for what was right, against the odds and collectively, good defeated evil, like me, there will be many on here who lost family in that war, standing for freedom for the world. Why shouldn't we be be proud of what this country stood for then and the brave who ensured all our freedoms, including the ungreatful hordes currently smashing our country up? Just now, Rewulf said: Its a good job the authors much despised Empire/Commonwealth WAS there to pull upon..Or he would probably been writing a very different article, in German,with a swastika at the top of the page. At least we wouldnt have to cope with shame of our colonial past then , as it would most likely have been erased from history, a bit like how some are trying to do now. Ahhh, you beat me 🤬😜👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said: Ahhh, you beat me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: I think that's talking down what the brave men and women of the UK ,who stood up to Hitler did at that time. There were many calling for us not to get involved, as they rightly pointed out, we were unlikely to be able to win it at that point,but the likes of Churchill and other great people, stood for what was right, against the odds and collectively, good defeated evil, like me, there will be many on here who lost family in that war, standing for freedom for the world. Why shouldn't we be be proud of what this country stood for then and the brave who ensured all our freedoms, including the ungreatful hordes currently smashing our country up? Ahhh, you beat me 🤬😜👍 We should absoloutely be proud of what the men and women achieved at that time. We now need to be proud in our own time rather than falling back on the crutch of the past wether it be vera lyn, or the world cup win. What are we doing here and now other than lurching from crisis to crisis? Maybe thats why we keep falling back on the past when the goal was clear then, it was about survival. Now it's more an aimless drift. Edited June 19, 2020 by oowee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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