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Why does the guardian hate this country so much ?


Rewulf
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1 hour ago, AVB said:

Whilst there are many people around who had parents who suffered through WW2 you will still get some people harking back to it. However, over time this will fade in the same way that WW1 is and previous wars already have. 
 

Considering that nobody alive today was either a slave or a slave owner I see no reason to think anymore deeply, or guiltily, about it than other historical events. Any more than the Danes do about the atrocities of Vikings or the Italians do about the  atrocities of the Romans. 

I largely agree with this, my Master’s thesis was a review of the artificial preservation of Holocaust buildings. ‘Auschwitz After Memory,’ the premise of my argument was that the continuous replacement and repairs dissolves the authenticity. Proposing that, once the last of the generation who experienced it and have memory of how it was have passed, it should be left to nature to overtake and a more reflective memorial found to bear witness to an experience we cannot replicate.

I also agree with RC, I too cringe when I see a generation who never experienced the war take ownership of it on their parents’ or grandparents’ behalf. My wife’s uncle, a Lt Cmdr who captained a destroyer in Scapa Flow during the war aged 18, is a fair old age now, but he is not in the least bit jingoistic nor has any nostalgia for the war. My maternal grandmother was the sole survivor of six children and their parents when their house was destroyed in the Blitz. She was orphaned, wounded with shrapnel and apparently received a war pension as the injury never healed. She lived with the wound her entire life dying in her early forties. Of course I feel proud of the UK’s history, but feel that it is cheapened when it is claimed for our generation, or some modern triviality (e.g. BREXIT or football) is compared to the sacrifice of millions.

Generally, we can learn from the past and grow to be a better society, but we should not be afraid to understand when we have moved on and its significance, rawness or sense of connection has become diluted through time. The same as you cannot be in a relationship with someone and keep raking up past events, either it is done and forgiven or you move on. That works both ways, we should neither flagellate our selves for our ancestors’ trade in slaves nor should we try to bask in the glory of a war we didn’t fight. 

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2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

My point exactly.  And it's very destructive, because it's impossible to make decent progress if you're always looking backwards over your shoulder the whole time. Also, if you wander along daydreaming about the past and imagining you're somewhere other than where you really are, and not paying attention to where you're going, if you're not careful you'll very likely end up falling down a manhole or walking in front of a bus or whatever, and getting very badly hurt.

And unfortunately, it rather looks as if that's exactly what's happened. Brexit, when it kicks in next year, is going to be one hell of a rude awakening. 

I certainly hope it’ll be one helluva rude awakening; we’ve been wandering along daydreaming for far too long. 
I don’t see how leaving a totally undemocratic and unaccountable regime is a backward step. 
As an aside, I just wondered....are you actually a shooter? Not that you have to be of course; I’m just not aware of you posting in any other topic apart from ‘Off Topic’. I just wondered what your motives were for joining a shooting forum to mostly engage in political threads. 

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13 hours ago, Retsdon said:

My point exactly.  And it's very destructive, because it's impossible to make decent progress if you're always looking backwards over your shoulder the whole time. Also, if you wander along daydreaming about the past and imagining you're somewhere other than where you really are, and not paying attention to where you're going, if you're not careful you'll very likely end up falling down a manhole or walking in front of a bus or whatever, and getting very badly hurt.

And unfortunately, it rather looks as if that's exactly what's happened. Brexit, when it kicks in next year, is going to be one hell of a rude awakening. 

Six months ago I would have agreed with you, indeed many commentators were suggesting Brexit would be more like Suez2 than WW2 but I think COVID has now trumped it.

I'm not even sure the immediate effects of Brexit will now even be detectable as noise in the background of COVID?

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13 hours ago, AVB said:

I respect your well written post but not sure on what you are basing it on. I was born 10 years or so before you. Whilst I can’t remember exactly what we covered at school I can remember learning about the Romans, the Slave trade and WW1. I don’t recall learning much about WW2 although I hear about it from my father who fought in it and the many films made at the time. 
 

My younger children are both going through GCSE history at the moment. They are covering The period from 1920 (primarily the depression) through to the Cold War although the focus is mainly around the aftermath of WW2 and not the war itself. 
 

Whilst there are many people around who had parents who suffered through WW2 you will still get some people harking back to it. However, over time this will fade in the same way that WW1 is and previous wars already have. 
 

Considering that nobody alive today was either a slave or a slave owner I see no reason to think anymore deeply, or guiltily, about it than other historical events. Any more than the Danes do about the atrocities of Vikings or the Italians do about the  atrocities of the Romans. 

 

All I remember from my O Level History was the Industrial revolution and four crop rotation system but to be fair the whole thing was a mess and we were told at shoer notice we'd been taught the wrong syllabus.

My son is currently doing an A Level in it and is taught the French revolution, English Civil War and the popularity of the Third Reich.

The slave trade was just one of many examples I could have picked but it's not really the point, my point was if you don't represent History correctly then you have ****** all chance of actually learning from it. No need to feel guilty or apologetic about any of it.

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12 hours ago, WalkedUp said:

I largely agree with this, my Master’s thesis was a review of the artificial preservation of Holocaust buildings. ‘Auschwitz After Memory,’ the premise of my argument was that the continuous replacement and repairs dissolves the authenticity. Proposing that, once the last of the generation who experienced it and have memory of how it was have passed, it should be left to nature to overtake and a more reflective memorial found to bear witness to an experience we cannot replicate.

I also agree with RC, I too cringe when I see a generation who never experienced the war take ownership of it on their parents’ or grandparents’ behalf. My wife’s uncle, a Lt Cmdr who captained a destroyer in Scapa Flow during the war aged 18, is a fair old age now, but he is not in the least bit jingoistic nor has any nostalgia for the war. My maternal grandmother was the sole survivor of six children and their parents when their house was destroyed in the Blitz. She was orphaned, wounded with shrapnel and apparently received a war pension as the injury never healed. She lived with the wound her entire life dying in her early forties. Of course I feel proud of the UK’s history, but feel that it is cheapened when it is claimed for our generation, or some modern triviality (e.g. BREXIT or football) is compared to the sacrifice of millions.

Generally, we can learn from the past and grow to be a better society, but we should not be afraid to understand when we have moved on and its significance, rawness or sense of connection has become diluted through time. The same as you cannot be in a relationship with someone and keep raking up past events, either it is done and forgiven or you move on. That works both ways, we should neither flagellate our selves for our ancestors’ trade in slaves nor should we try to bask in the glory of a war we didn’t fight. 

Agreed. I'd also add that in order to learn from the past in a meaningful way you need an accurate description of it, else the lessons are skewed at best. You can adopt the same logic in organisations around the notion of lessons learnt, which from experience, often are not learnt but rather just identified, sometimes over and over again.

Another example of harking on about the past, based on the area I have "lived" all my life is an obsession by all the wannabe gangsters and hard men who were apparently either directly related to or had relatives close to the Kray twins. I could never work out what that was all about or how it was even relevant but it seemed to be concentrated to people from Canning Town who nearly always supported Millwall. My only experience in all that was being unfortunate enough to find myself in the presence of mad Frankie Fraser at various boxing gigs in Manchester in the 90's, people used to clamour to talk to him and hear his stories, we'd invariably find a quiet corner away from it all and do our own thing.

 

11 hours ago, Pistol p said:

It’s because the employees of the guardian are not ethnically from the British Isles. 

As in they are not Welsh or ?

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On 19/06/2020 at 12:32, Rewulf said:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/jun/18/well-meet-again-vera-lynn-pop-masterpiece-second-world-war?fbclid=IwAR0xVJfcBSrPWRXWUC3Rama9eZytJOPdobpSdTdr_81zmHwenq-rs5GYiA0

They must have started writing the piece as soon as her death was announced.

I struggle to see the reasoning behind using her passing to have a dig at British culture, values ect.

Do all guardian readers share some sort of inbuilt guilt complex about being British ?

Could you please explain what makes you feel that way? I am struggling to understand. What digs are made at what British culture and what British values? 

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43 minutes ago, ehb102 said:

Could you please explain what makes you feel that way? I am struggling to understand. What digs are made at what British culture and what British values? 

Id have a read back , Ive done the best I can at trying to explain, whilst others have said that its because we 'live in the past'
If you dont feel that the article is an attack on British culture and values that were perfectly normal to ordinary people who lived before , during and after WW2 , then Id go and have another read of the FULL article.
Its a cheap dig , using the death of DVL , to score points against anyone who doesnt fully agree and support the guardians agenda.

4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Agreed. I'd also add that in order to learn from the past in a meaningful way you need an accurate description of it, else the lessons are skewed at best. You can adopt the same logic in organisations around the notion of lessons learnt, which from experience, often are not learnt but rather just identified, sometimes over and over again.

Perhaps have a word with the left wing educational establishment who actually teach 'The past',  if anyone skews it ,  surely the blame lies at their door.

What does living in the past actually mean ?
Is it some catch all answer to difficult questions, or lack of understanding when your parents or grandparents tell you something you dont agree with ?
Raja stated that he didnt realise what his grandad went through until much later in life, yet then explains that we cant all live in the past...
Some people dont have the choice, they stick to the familiarity of their 'time'
Just like in later years , he will stick to his time of growing up in the 80s and 90s ect...and be judged accordingly by his children and grandchildren as 'living in the past'

Holding onto memories of your heyday , your youth , shouldnt have to treated with scorn or derision, my own children arent bought up with the values and discipline that I was, they are free to follow their own path, with only the gentlest of guidance.
The world changes , values and customs change, and very few people remain rigid and entrenched in their values, its a bit of a fallacy if Im honest, and stems back to that lack of understanding from the young, of what the world was like back in 'those days'
When I explain to my kids, I feel sometimes like they dont believe the stories I tell them of growing up, the lack of toys and electronics, the internet, and smartphones, something they cant envisage living without, completely absent from life.
Is this living in the past, explaining what it was like for me ?

Showing RESPECT for those that fought , died , and supported this country through war , and harder times than any of these workshy thugs could possibly imagine.
Is that living in the past ?
Yet some guardian journo feels he can urinate on those peoples memories so he can score some lefty 'cool points' with the avid readership , while they shelter in their safe spaces.

If youre of an age and sometimes wonder what this world is coming to, is that living in the past ?
Is that WRONG?

But its not wrong to call for statues of long dead people to be toppled, names no one knows erased, by people who have never really known hardship , calling for reparations for 'slavery' ,often from places that have never experienced it in living memory ?
Apparently this ISNT living in the past, and the definition is obvious ...and if you cant see it , you must be 'living in the past..'and probably a racist too for good measure.

Welcome to the  brave new world, where hypocrisy is mandatory.

12 minutes ago, oowee said:

Insecurity? 

:lol:

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16 hours ago, Scully said:

As an aside, I just wondered....are you actually a shooter?

That's a bit like asking a prisoner in a jail if he's getting his oats....

There's no opportunity eithe  here or in Thailand, so currently not. But, seeing as you're asking, it so happens that I shall be arriving in the UK at the end of next week and expect to be there for at least 6 weeks with not much to do. I'm going to have to do a Cummings and self-isolate for 2 weeks after arrival  - not having a handy cottage, a tent in the garden is the plan -  but after that, if you (or any other members of PW) were to be so generous as to invite me to shoot pigeons or any other legal quarry for that time of year I would be most extremely appreciative of the offer. Will have car, would travel.

It's been a good few years so I wouldn't expect to hit as much as I probably should. On the other hand if anyone were kind enough, I could guarantee that I'm as safe a shot as anyone could ever wish to sit with in a hide or walk alongside in a line, and in any shooting environment I'm not going to embarrass either myself, my host, or the company I'm in. 

Does that answer your question? :)

5 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm not even sure the immediate effects of Brexit will now even be detectable as noise in the background of COVID?

They will, don't worry. But really, it's too late to do anything now and I shouldn't probably have been posting stuff that I guessed was likely to irritate people. Nothing good ever comes of it.

Anyway, I don't care anymore. After 4 months in basically what's been solitary confinement, I'm just happy to be getting on a plane. Nothing else is the least bit important just now. And while people might thing I'm anti the UK, I'm not. It will always be my home, and it's the only country in the world where I have any kind of  citizen's rights at all. I'ts just that I can't help but chirp up when I think the country is being driven down a dead end.

17 hours ago, Pistol p said:

It’s because the employees of the guardian are not ethnically from the British Isles.

Whatever. They all went to Oxbridge though! It's almost as difficult a club to get into as Boodles....

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Just now, Rewulf said:

Perhaps have a word with the left wing educational establishment who actually teach 'The past',  if anyone skews it ,  surely the blame lies at their door.

Boom straight to the politic jugular, not particularly interested in blame, get's us nowhere (but does kind of reflect the point of the original article).

What does living in the past actually mean ?
Is it some catch all answer to difficult questions, or lack of understanding when your parents or grandparents tell you something you dont agree with ?
Raja stated that he didnt realise what his grandad went through until much later in life, yet then explains that we cant all live in the past...

I was talking about the difference between asking as a child and later on understanding more as an adult (I didn't say much later in life, did I?)
Some people dont have the choice, they stick to the familiarity of their 'time'
Just like in later years , he will stick to his time of growing up in the 80s and 90s ect...and be judged accordingly by his children and grandchildren as 'living in the past'

I think you're missing the point or at least skewed with your timeline. Yes, it applies more or less as a human trait but we were talking about people who weren't alive, or at least adults, still hanging onto the war. The human trait is different to a national obsession. Most Germans, and other Europeans I know, are truly baffled by it.

Holding onto memories of your heyday , your youth , shouldnt have to treated with scorn or derision, my own children arent bought up with the values and discipline that I was, they are free to follow their own path, with only the gentlest of guidance.
The world changes , values and customs change, and very few people remain rigid and entrenched in their values, its a bit of a fallacy if Im honest, and stems back to that lack of understanding from the young, of what the world was like back in 'those days'
When I explain to my kids, I feel sometimes like they dont believe the stories I tell them of growing up, the lack of toys and electronics, the internet, and smartphones, something they cant envisage living without, completely absent from life.

I'm with you on this but again, in a way I think you have it about face, the elder generation lived through the past, trying to fully impart past experiences from yesteryear is like being white and suggesting you have a deep understanding or denial of white on black racism - how are the youngsters expected to relate?

This is where I defend the kids today, sure they have it easy in some respects but lots of other pressures we weren't exposed to and possibly don't even understand, thus my intense dislike of these snowflake and the like terms.
Is this living in the past, explaining what it was like for me ?

No.

Showing RESPECT for those that fought , died , and supported this country through war , and harder times than any of these workshy thugs could possibly imagine.

What workshy thugs are you referring to?
Is that living in the past ?
Yet some guardian journo feels he can urinate on those peoples memories so he can score some lefty 'cool points' with the avid readership , while they shelter in their safe spaces.

If youre of an age and sometimes wonder what this world is coming to, is that living in the past ?

Nope, that's human nature I believe.
Is that WRONG?

No, but it's a bit blinkered not to consider the fact that these thoughts have existed since time immemorial.

But its not wrong to call for statues of long dead people to be toppled, names no one knows erased, by people who have never really known hardship , calling for reparations for 'slavery' ,often from places that have never experienced it in living memory ?
Apparently this ISNT living in the past, and the definition is obvious ...and if you cant see it , you must be 'living in the past..'and probably a racist too for good measure.

Now you appear to have just gone off on one. Why mix all these topics together...

Welcome to the  brave new world, where hypocrisy is mandatory.

:lol:

 

6 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

They will, don't worry. But really, it's too late to do anything now and I shouldn't probably have been posting stuff that I guessed was likely to irritate people. Nothing good ever comes of it.

Anyway, I don't care anymore. After 4 months in basically what's been solitary confinement, I'm just happy to be getting on a plane. Nothing else is the least bit important just now. And while people might thing I'm anti the UK, I'm not. It will always be my home, and it's the only country in the world where I have any kind of  citizen's rights at all. I'ts just that I can't help but chirp up when I think the country is being driven down a dead end.

I've certainly never suggested you were anti UK.

 

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6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Boom straight to the politic jugular, not particularly interested in blame, get's us nowhere (but does kind of reflect the point of the original article).

Are you actually saying the education system is NOT dominated by left wing ideology ?

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I was talking about the difference between asking as a child and later on understanding more as an adult (I didn't say much later in life, did I?)

So was I , age is relative , much later in life could be the difference between 10 years old and 20 years old, maturity can be gained in a day, or never .

9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I think you're missing the point or at least skewed with your timeline. Yes, it applies more or less as a human trait but we were talking about people who weren't alive, or at least adults, still hanging onto the war. The human trait is different to a national obsession. Most Germans, and other Europeans I know, are truly baffled by it.

And as I said previously , its a fallacy.
Do you hang on to the war ? No.
Do I , No.

Who does ?
At best , its a figure of speech, or something the older generation refer to occasionally.
This weird idea that Brits are constantly banging on about 'the war' , is a stereotype leftover from Fawlty Towers , that hasnt existed for decades.
If its bought up in political discourse , its usually as an analogy.

14 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm with you on this but again, in a way I think you have it about face, the elder generation lived through the past, trying to fully impart past experiences from yesteryear is like being white and suggesting you have a deep understanding or denial of white on black racism - how are the youngsters expected to relate?

By talking to their black friends ?
Keep putting the division there , the shame , for something they are not responsible for, how can they move forward from that position ?
Have we really got to feel that that just because we are white ?
What happens if youre white but one of your grandparents was of colour ?
Do you only feel 25 % ashamed ?
Its ridiculous.

22 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

What workshy thugs are you referring to?

'Professional protesters , antifa ,BLM , sat there with placards complaining about the racism theyve never experienced.
Other associated bandwaggoners , who live privileged lives , but complain of 'the struggle'

25 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

No, but it's a bit blinkered not to consider the fact that these thoughts have existed since time immemorial.

And referred to as 'living in the past' since time immemorial .

26 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Now you appear to have just gone off on one. Why mix all these topics together...

Because they are all relevant to where we are, right now.
We are bombarded nearly every day by the media, with stories to make us feel ashamed of who we are.
Stripping out the core of the country, creating division and anger.

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45 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Are you actually saying the education system is NOT dominated by left wing ideology ?

So was I , age is relative , much later in life could be the difference between 10 years old and 20 years old, maturity can be gained in a day, or never .

And as I said previously , its a fallacy.
Do you hang on to the war ? No.
Do I , No.

Who does ?
At best , its a figure of speech, or something the older generation refer to occasionally.
This weird idea that Brits are constantly banging on about 'the war' , is a stereotype leftover from Fawlty Towers , that hasnt existed for decades.
If its bought up in political discourse , its usually as an analogy.

By talking to their black friends ?
Keep putting the division there , the shame , for something they are not responsible for, how can they move forward from that position ?
Have we really got to feel that that just because we are white ?
What happens if youre white but one of your grandparents was of colour ?
Do you only feel 25 % ashamed ?
Its ridiculous.

'Professional protesters , antifa ,BLM , sat there with placards complaining about the racism theyve never experienced.
Other associated bandwaggoners , who live privileged lives , but complain of 'the struggle'

And referred to as 'living in the past' since time immemorial .

Because they are all relevant to where we are, right now.
We are bombarded nearly every day by the media, with stories to make us feel ashamed of who we are.
Stripping out the core of the country, creating division and anger.

Picking up on a point in your post. Expecting people to feel ashamed/guilty or anything else for slavery because they are white is racist in itself, the very large majority of white British people, unless they come from gentry, or very wealthy families, will most likely have had nothing to do with slavery, either now, or their family tree. All BLM will achieve with blaming whites for slavery that happened hundreds of years ago, is cause division and animosity based on colour, which is the very thing they are trying to prevent, isn't it?

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Fascinating to read this thread.  People appear to be taking wildly different things away from the article. 

It’s a classic Guardian sneer-piece.  Will go down a storm in Islington and in the BBC break room, but unlikely to gain much traction elsewhere.

To answer the OP’s question: why does the Guardian hate this country so much?  Because it sells newspapers.  Or at least they think it does.  The Independent thought this too.   And it no longer publishes a printed edition.

 

37 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

This weird idea that Brits are constantly banging on about 'the war' , is a stereotype leftover from Fawlty Towers , that hasn't existed for decades.
If its bought up in political discourse , its usually as an analogy.

Spot on.

Usually these analogies are rubbish anyway, or fall over at the first sign of closer examination.  Thus leading to wise-en-heimers to exclaim "you've misunderstood what an analogy is."

Useless anecdote:Before the lockdown, I used to spend about a week every month working in Germany.  I studiously avoid bringing up the war, but German colleagues will mention it without qualm, where relevant to the conversation.  One senior customer even mentioned it, and on purpose invoked Godwin's law. 

He also politely reminded me not to use the term final solution (I was talking about interim solutions to a problem before hand...).

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1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Picking up on a point in your post. Expecting people to feel ashamed/guilty or anything else for slavery because they are white is racist in itself, the very large majority of white British people, unless they come from gentry, or very wealthy families, will most likely have had nothing to do with slavery, either now, or their family tree. All BLM will achieve with blaming whites for slavery that happened hundreds of years ago, is cause division and animosity based on colour, which is the very thing they are trying to prevent, isn't it?

👍 Very true

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17 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Are you actually saying the education system is NOT dominated by left wing ideology ?

No, I'm not, academics tend to be left wing. Again, a multi-factorial phenomena and I suspect it's exaggerated at times too. It does not particularly bother me any more, than say, the fact that bankers tend to have a right wing bias.

Reflecting on my own experience, I am a bit right wing by nature but through my graduate and post-graduate study, as well as life experiences around a lot of travel globally, I became aware that my views shifted left somewhat - this has nothing to do with being indoctrinated by leftie academics and more to do with:

  • learning the subjects themselves
  • meeting with other students from diverse backgrounds and cultures and learning as much, if not more, from them as the course material

Bear in mind I was studying systems engineering and then software engineering which may be different from humanities and other social sciences.

Also, the correlation between education and social liberalism are well documented. The fact that the more educated people are then the more their tendency to lean to the left may trouble some people but it's unlikely to change in the short term. If people want to use that fact as an excuse to move further right wing then I guess that's their personal choice.

Just to be clear, I am in no way suggesting people with right wing views lack intelligence but there is a bit of a clue in the word conservative regarding, perhaps, their open mindedness.

Who does ?
At best , its a figure of speech, or something the older generation refer to occasionally.
This weird idea that Brits are constantly banging on about 'the war' , is a stereotype leftover from Fawlty Towers , that hasnt existed for decades.
If its bought up in political discourse , its usually as an analogy.

I tend to disagree in the main around this. Again, I'm reflecting on my personal experience and journey around my original position on the 2016 referendum compared to the way I ended up voting. I agree it's sometimes uses in political discourse as an analogy, one that time and time again proves disproportionately powerful and effective.

By talking to their black friends ?

No, I was actually using that as an analogy.
Keep putting the division there , the shame , for something they are not responsible for, how can they move forward from that position ?
Have we really got to feel that that just because we are white ?
What happens if youre white but one of your grandparents was of colour ?
Do you only feel 25 % ashamed ?
Its ridiculous.

This has next to nothing to do with race, it's about post war obsession with a distorted view of our import in the outcome which leads to a historical distortion of the facts whilst overlooking a number of other historical events which should have been just a key to our modern day thinking, view of the world and our place in it.

'Professional protesters , antifa ,BLM , sat there with placards complaining about the racism theyve never experienced.
Other associated bandwaggoners , who live privileged lives , but complain of 'the struggle'

Again, not about race.

And referred to as 'living in the past' since time immemorial .

Because they are all relevant to where we are, right now.
We are bombarded nearly every day by the media, with stories to make us feel ashamed of who we are.
Stripping out the core of the country, creating division and anger.

I believe you to be robust, not sure I can take this at face value to be honest.

As I've said before, pertaining to my background; whilst I don't need to claim to be proud of where I've come from - I certainly will not be made to feel ashamed of it and I can, without guilt or other burden, feel proud of what I've achieved.  

 

16 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Picking up on a point in your post. Expecting people to feel ashamed/guilty or anything else for slavery because they are white is racist in itself, the very large majority of white British people, unless they come from gentry, or very wealthy families, will most likely have had nothing to do with slavery, either now, or their family tree. All BLM will achieve with blaming whites for slavery that happened hundreds of years ago, is cause division and animosity based on colour, which is the very thing they are trying to prevent, isn't it?

But this discussion is about post war Britain, not race or BLM.

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17 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Picking up on a point in your post. Expecting people to feel ashamed/guilty or anything else for slavery because they are white is racist in itself, the very large majority of white British people, unless they come from gentry, or very wealthy families, will most likely have had nothing to do with slavery, either now, or their family tree. All BLM will achieve with blaming whites for slavery that happened hundreds of years ago, is cause division and animosity based on colour, which is the very thing they are trying to prevent, isn't it?

How about we focus on the achievement of the abolishment of slavery. Then every body’s happy.

 

17 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

<snip>
He also politely reminded me not to use the term final solution (I was talking about interim solutions to a problem before hand...).

Probably inappropriate but that made me laugh.

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49 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

But this discussion is about post war Britain, not race or BLM.

I thought it was about why the guardian hates this country.

19 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

How about we focus on the achievement of the abolishment of slavery. Then every body’s happy.

 

 

I don't think we need to overly focus on either the slave trade or the abolishment either, as long as the history of slavery is taught factually, it isn't hard to draw the conclusion that it was a vile practice that must never be repeated

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Just now, 12gauge82 said:

I thought it was about why the guardian hates this country.

Go on then, what's the correlation here? It seemed to me like Rewulf went off on one based on the analogy / metaphor I used as to white people claiming to understand black issues in teh same way the generations don't fully understand oneanother...

17 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Picking up on a point in your post. Expecting people to feel ashamed/guilty or anything else for slavery because they are white is racist in itself, the very large majority of white British people, unless they come from gentry, or very wealthy families, will most likely have had nothing to do with slavery, either now, or their family tree. All BLM will achieve with blaming whites for slavery that happened hundreds of years ago, is cause division and animosity based on colour, which is the very thing they are trying to prevent, isn't it?

 

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8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Go on then, what's the correlation here? It seemed to me like Rewulf went off on one based on the analogy / metaphor I used as to white people claiming to understand black issues in teh same way the generations don't fully understand oneanother...

 

The correlation was a point I picked up on that rewulf posted in a reply to you.

But if that was going off topic, discussing this here rather than PM is batting it out of the park.

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8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Go on then, what's the correlation here?

Whats the correlation between DVL s death , and the bulk of the article ?

What was the purpose of that article in essence , you could hardly call it a celebration of her life, which most decent journalists would have done.
Any topic is fair game for a bit of tory bashing with the guardian/indy.

18 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

It’s a classic Guardian sneer-piece.  Will go down a storm in Islington and in the BBC break room, but unlikely to gain much traction elsewhere.

This sums it up for me, never to miss an opportunity to give a good kick in the ballcocks to what it sees as its ideological enemies, as in , the majority of the British people.

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

This has next to nothing to do with race,

At this moment in time , everything is about race.

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