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Steel hits the mark at new workshops


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On 02/07/2020 at 19:50, Conor O'Gorman said:

EU member states are currently voting on EC proposals to ban the use of lead shot over all wetlands including peatlands, a ban on the use of lead shot within 100m of wetlands, and a vague ban on the possession of lead shot when shooting on or within 100m of wetlands. 

The formal 21 day written vote by member states ends on 15 July and we continue to support a lobbying effort by hunting organisations across Europe to ensure that the EC proposals are rejected.

For more info see BASC fights EU lead ammunition restrictions

BASC will continue to fight against disproportionate and unsubstantiated restrictions on the use of lead ammunition. We have been leading this fight for 40 years.

If the EC proposals mentioned above are passed that could lead to further restrictions in the UK within 2 years and viable alternatives to lead ammunition are simply not yet available in sufficient quantities or calibres either here or in mainland Europe.

At the same time, together with eight other UK organisations, we are encouraging a smooth voluntary transition away from the use of lead shot for live quarry over the next five years.

These areas of work are not mutually exclusive.

In summary we are working to prevent politically motivated bans whilst encouraging a five year research and development period for viable alternatives for live quarry shooting.

Could I make a suggestion?

I would draw your attention to Page 1, Section 1. Introduction And Background, Para 1.1.2 of the report "A ballistic Measurement System to Assist the Developmwnt and Evaluation of Non-Toxic Shot" of which BASC has a copy.

In 1992 it was decided that in September of1995 we would adopt a 2 year phasing out period to allow time for a selection of non-toxic ammunition to become available to shooters. This new ammunition was to have met three criteria in addituion to being non-toxic - namely Safe in use, Effective and affordable.

Now, the 2 year period as history reflects was nowhere near time enough. In fact, not only was it not achieved in the 2 years and bearing in mind the four required criteria for its use has still not been achieved despite all efforts by all concerned in the almost 25 years since the 2 year period expired. Now we're told, it's OK, we can do it in five years.

My suggestion would be that as the main thrust of the introduction of NTS which relates to wildfowl has been met is to stop faffing about with the shot and concentrate of getting rid of the plastic which arguably is the greater evil. Naturally, the medium chosen/preferred should also meet the 4 criteria already in effect for the introduction of NTS. Once we have achieved this, then in another 25 years perhaps we could have another look at the possibility of finding something to replace lead - however doubtful this may be.

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1 hour ago, Salopian said:

Lancer , 

You keep promoting the use of Steel . Why ? When Lead is cheaper , more efficient , readily available .

Steel cartridges £340 per thousand , Lead £189 per thousand . Steel as a commodity is cheaper than Lead , so why the rip off?

i don’t know why anyone would champion steel when everyone knows the truth about it the second they pull the trigger it’s rubbish pure and simple 

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1 hour ago, Farmboy91 said:

I was more referring to the wad. 

The wads fine 

it’s a shot cup that’s needed in biodegradable 

12 minutes ago, clangerman said:

i don’t know why anyone would champion steel when everyone knows the truth about it the second they pull the trigger it’s rubbish pure and simple 

Have you actually shot any of the recently produced steel cartridges? 

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On 03/07/2020 at 10:36, Rob85 said:

This may seem like a silly question but why are we concerned about what Europe is passing in regards lead shot when we are no longer a part of Europe? I may have gotten the wrong end of the stick so please don't eat me over it!

Because in terms of environmental legislation UK government will follow suit. We may no longer be governed by Brussels but there are many areas where we will end up, toeing the EEC party line.

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On 02/07/2020 at 19:50, Conor O'Gorman said:

EU member states are currently voting on EC proposals to ban the use of lead shot over all wetlands including peatlands, a ban on the use of lead shot within 100m of wetlands, and a vague ban on the possession of lead shot when shooting on or within 100m of wetlands. 

The formal 21 day written vote by member states ends on 15 July and we continue to support a lobbying effort by hunting organisations across Europe to ensure that the EC proposals are rejected.

For more info see BASC fights EU lead ammunition restrictions

BASC will continue to fight against disproportionate and unsubstantiated restrictions on the use of lead ammunition. We have been leading this fight for 40 years.

If the EC proposals mentioned above are passed that could lead to further restrictions in the UK within 2 years and viable alternatives to lead ammunition are simply not yet available in sufficient quantities or calibres either here or in mainland Europe.

At the same time, together with eight other UK organisations, we are encouraging a smooth voluntary transition away from the use of lead shot for live quarry over the next five years.

These areas of work are not mutually exclusive.

In summary we are working to prevent politically motivated bans whilst encouraging a five year research and development period for viable alternatives for live quarry shooting.

Would that be the EU we will no longer be part of after the 31st December 2020 and for which any EU legislation before then would still have to be enacted through UK legislation which we aren't going to do?

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1 hour ago, Salopian said:

Lancer , 

You keep promoting the use of Steel . Why ? When Lead is cheaper , more efficient , readily available .

Steel cartridges £340 per thousand , Lead £189 per thousand . Steel as a commodity is cheaper than Lead , so why the rip off?

Lead is toxic steel is non lead and if its used/ loaded to perform to its capabilities its able to hold its own in Leads company. Too much emphasis on specific gravity alone. The shot type is just one aspect of an efficient cartridge.

 Steel has the ability to pattern extremely well, and when its working well you do not need anything else.

 I had 30 years with lead and have had only 20 with steel and other non lead ammo. I also got a good memory and i will say the claim lead is more efficient is a big claim. and needs some backing up. In which way exactly?

Specific gravity. Yes it wins over steel.

Pattern/ performance. No i know steel will out perform Lead no matter what choke or however its loaded. You could beat Lead with steel every time, given the free range of specifics.

Lethality? Again no but this is again given a free range of specifics. Steel kills fine, just chose the right bore choke shot size and load and its very efficient.

Lead is denser no doubt about that. but other than that steel still works and in the field you wont see an obvious advantage one against the other. Steel wins in some areas lead in others, but in point of fact the difference is indecipherable in fact some research has shown steel in a favourable light.

Look at this on doves lead vs steel. the research is good and well thought out, we could never see such research ever carried out here. but those that use steel know its more than capable. and that is about as strong a evidence as we can field here in the UK.

Watch this with an unbiased eye. you might just see steel in a better light.

OH price? Let me know where you can buy 28kgs of 2.8mm 5s  lead shot for Less than £45 +vat. Then i might see how its cheaper.

Meanwhile might i suggest you watch this video.

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, clangerman said:

i don’t know why anyone would champion steel when everyone knows the truth about it the second they pull the trigger it’s rubbish pure and simple 

Clangerman that is Nonsense.

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1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

 

Have you actually shot any of the recently produced steel cartridges? 

yes and the last of it is currently being used as a door stop if i could get a opinion from pigeons it would have to be the ones i use steel on because the ones i used lead on are all DEAD proof of the pudding is in the shooting thanks 

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45 minutes ago, Mr.C said:

Can anyone point me at a 2 1/2“ steel cart I can shoot through my beautiful Damascus barreled 19C boxlock? 

I believe steel through Damascus is always going to be a no no.  
The only option at the moment is bismuth shot.
I have a lovely black powder Dickson from 1865. The only way with that will be to load some black powder cartridges with bismuth. Can’t see those becoming commercially available.

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3 hours ago, London Best said:

I believe steel through Damascus is always going to be a no no.  
The only option at the moment is bismuth shot.
I have a lovely black powder Dickson from 1865. The only way with that will be to load some black powder cartridges with bismuth. Can’t see those becoming commercially available.

If you have access to the June 2020 edition of sporting shooter there is an article from Danish fieldsports writer Thorkild Ellerbaek about shooting steel. A kind of question and answer thing. He states that his guns for shooting are an 1892 westley richards and a john blanch hammer gun thats about 10 years older than that. Both of which are damascus barrels. He does say that he doesn't shoot 150 shots 5 days a week in the season so take from that what you will but he does have a friend who has fired thousands of steel cartridges a season through an old padstone gun for the last 15 years....funny how it's always "a friend" that does it. 

He does come across towards the end of the article as quite ignorant to the point of almost being downright rude towards our way of doing things though.

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The general advice is that damascus and steel shot are a no no. but they go through nittro proof ok, and i do not see why they can not be safe with normal steel loads.

  Some makers dont recomend using steel in their barrels, the herstal browning /FN A5s were a prime example of this, and browning recomended steel only in the JAP/ A5s not herstall made guns. i fired thousands of steel reloads through a herstall made 3 inch magnum A5 choked full in the early 2000s this gun was 1930s and very old and tired but never gave a single issue on steel, no scratching riveling bulging or any kind of choke wear i could tell.

I would personally not run steel through a Damascus barrelled gun, but that is true that i would not run lead through one either. I have nothing against Damascus or old guns, but i would just use a more suitable gun. I would not use a bentley to go foxing in either if you get my point.

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On 04/07/2020 at 10:47, clangerman said:

i don’t know why anyone would champion steel when everyone knows the truth about it the second they pull the trigger it’s rubbish pure and simple 

There by talks someone who has never given a fair trial to steel. What many people do not realise steel needs a bit of for thought, changing shot sizes , matching the chokes to the load and speed of the shell and so on.  I have shot everything from game to wildfowl with steel and found more cleaner kills and fewer wounded birds and all this talk about rebounding shot is rubbish. It does not rebound as much as lead in my experience. Get a gun made to shoot steel and learn new methods of shooting and you will have no problems with it. Steel is just as good as lead these days.

Edited by Norfolk wildfowler
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On 04/07/2020 at 21:12, lancer425 said:

The general advice is that damascus and steel shot are a no no. but they go through nittro proof ok, and i do not see why they can not be safe with normal steel loads.

  Some makers dont recomend using steel in their barrels, the herstal browning /FN A5s were a prime example of this, and browning recomended steel only in the JAP/ A5s not herstall made guns. i fired thousands of steel reloads through a herstall made 3 inch magnum A5 choked full in the early 2000s this gun was 1930s and very old and tired but never gave a single issue on steel, no scratching riveling bulging or any kind of choke wear i could tell.

I would personally not run steel through a Damascus barrelled gun, but that is true that i would not run lead through one either. I have nothing against Damascus or old guns, but i would just use a more suitable gun. I would not use a bentley to go foxing in either if you get my point.

I am puzzled by your last paragraph that you wouldn’t shoot lead through a Damascus barrelled gun. I have shot such guns for decades and never had a problem with any ranging from 1840’s percussion to 1890’s breach loaders and by various makers. They are perfectly suitable for lead per their intended use. I have had no problems with any barrels. On the contrary my only issues have ever been with modern steel barrelled guns. 

I agree I would not put steel through them but with a cheap Damascus gun with sound barrels I would happily take the risk as Damascus if in good condition is far more forgiving than steel.

The over riding problem is that we have insufficient practical evidence of the effect of using standard steel in British game guns, including Damascus but it will come and we can then make informed decisions.

I say all this from having used steel for wildfowling for enough years to know it both works and does not adversely affect the guns I use it in.

Edited by Dave at kelton
Typo
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28 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

I am puzzled by your last paragraph that you wouldn’t shoot lead through a Damascus barrelled gun. I have shot such guns for decades and never had a problem with any ranging from 1840’s percussion to 1890’s breach loaders and by various makers. They are perfectly suitable for lead per their intended use. I have had no problems with any barrels. On the contrary my only issues have ever been with modern steel barrelled guns. 

I agree I would not put steel through them but with a cheap Damascus gun with sound barrels I would happily take the risk as Damascus if in good condition is far more forgiving than steel.

The over riding problem is that we have insufficient practical evidence of the effect of using standard steel in British game guns, including Damascus but it will come and we can then make informed decisions.

I say all this from having used steel for wildfowling for enough years to know it both works and does not adversely affect the guns I use it in.

The man's prose is hard work. It's taken me several days, but I think what he means is that he would rather shoot the higher rated barrels which cater better for fox loads as they're "more suitable"

But there again if it was 4x4, had some ground clearance and I could afford one I'd use a Bentley for any and all shooting.

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10 minutes ago, wymberley said:

The man's prose is hard work. It's taken me several days, but I think what he means is that he would rather shoot the higher rated barrels which cater better for fox loads as they're "more suitable"

But there again if it was 4x4, had some ground clearance and I could afford one I'd use a Bentley for any and all shooting.

You’d have both hands free and as long as you had a decent chauffeur for your Bentley you could get a fair amount of shooting 😂😂

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22 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

So you've tried it then?

I did get him some ear defenders although he moaned about the footprints on the seats when I was leaning out of the sunroof 😂

much better than the roller if I shot the dam spirit of ecstasy once I hit it a dozen times 😂😂

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