Steel hits the mark at new workshops

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, Dave at kelton said:

I am puzzled by your last paragraph that you wouldn’t shoot lead through a Damascus barrelled gun. I have shot such guns for decades and never had a problem with any ranging from 1840’s percussion to 1890’s breach loaders and by various makers. They are perfectly suitable for lead per their intended use. I have had no problems with any barrels. On the contrary my only issues have ever been with modern steel barrelled guns. 

I agree I would not put steel through them but with a cheap Damascus gun with sound barrels I would happily take the risk as Damascus if in good condition is far more forgiving than steel.

The over riding problem is that we have insufficient practical evidence of the effect of using standard steel in British game guns, including Damascus but it will come and we can then make informed decisions.

I say all this from having used steel for wildfowling for enough years to know it both works and does not adversely affect the guns I use it in.

My first ever shotgun at 11 in 197o  was a GE lewis 16 bore hammer gun. My first 12 bore was a Wilson & son " I guess Belgian" Damascus hammer gun. I tended to use Autos pumps other boxlocks like BSAs and AYAs etc and varrious O/Us . but every now and again i used my grandfathers 8s and 4 bore. His Rigby 8 wad Damascus and an armstrong8  was a Damascus.

 Apart from the big bores, even back in the early 80s i had no interest in using a damascus barrels shotgun at all. the USA reloading manuals and many books and USA magazine articles as far back as 1970s , advised strongly against DAMASCUS barrels "and remember we were talking LEAD shot then".

I had no fear of damascus guns, or any doubt a sound one would go through nitro proff and kill geese etc all day long.

But in fairness i did not want to Cook on a Yorkshire range either, or Ride a peney farthing my dad had in the stables gathering dust and rust. 

I was into Fowling not re-enacting fowling.   not against the big or even the old guns. Cars Bikes whatever. but i just would not want to use any old damascus gun today, anymore than i would relish a trip from Lincoln to Inverness in a 1930s austin 7 ruby.   They did it in the days of old fine. but for me FOR ME i emphasise. I do not want to know thanks.  LOOKING liking Even OWNING is fine. But its not everyone wants to use old damascus guns anynore and i am one of them.

.

[Dave at kelton]

22 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

My first ever shotgun at 11 in 197o  was a GE lewis 16 bore hammer gun. My first 12 bore was a Wilson & son " I guess Belgian" Damascus hammer gun. I tended to use Autos pumps other boxlocks like BSAs and AYAs etc and varrious O/Us . but every now and again i used my grandfathers 8s and 4 bore. His Rigby 8 wad Damascus and an armstrong8  was a Damascus.

 Apart from the big bores, even back in the early 80s i had no interest in using a damascus barrels shotgun at all. the USA reloading manuals and many books and USA magazine articles as far back as 1970s , advised strongly against DAMASCUS barrels "and remember we were talking LEAD shot then".

I had no fear of damascus guns, or any doubt a sound one would go through nitro proff and kill geese etc all day long.

But in fairness i did not want to Cook on a Yorkshire range either, or Ride a peney farthing my dad had in the stables gathering dust and rust. 

I was into Fowling not re-enacting fowling.   not against the big or even the old guns. Cars Bikes whatever. but i just would not want to use any old damascus gun today, anymore than i would relish a trip from Lincoln to Inverness in a 1930s austin 7 ruby.   They did it in the days of old fine. but for me FOR ME i emphasise. I do not want to know thanks.  LOOKING liking Even OWNING is fine. But its not everyone wants to use old damascus guns anynore and i am one of them.

.

That is fine and understood  everyone to their own. For the opposite reasons I would sooner shoot something vintage or antique from time to time getting the same use out of it as was it’s design over a century ago. I do use my semi autos on the geese and ou on the clays.

The steel shot threat is not stopping me looking for a Dixon or Macnaughton round action either.

[Terry2016]

On 04/07/2020 at 11:19, lancer425 said:

Lead is toxic steel is non lead and if its used/ loaded to perform to its capabilities its able to hold its own in Leads company. Too much emphasis on specific gravity alone. The shot type is just one aspect of an efficient cartridge.

 Steel has the ability to pattern extremely well, and when its working well you do not need anything else.

 I had 30 years with lead and have had only 20 with steel and other non lead ammo. I also got a good memory and i will say the claim lead is more efficient is a big claim. and needs some backing up. In which way exactly?

Specific gravity. Yes it wins over steel.

Pattern/ performance. No i know steel will out perform Lead no matter what choke or however its loaded. You could beat Lead with steel every time, given the free range of specifics.

Lethality? Again no but this is again given a free range of specifics. Steel kills fine, just chose the right bore choke shot size and load and its very efficient.

Lead is denser no doubt about that. but other than that steel still works and in the field you wont see an obvious advantage one against the other. Steel wins in some areas lead in others, but in point of fact the difference is indecipherable in fact some research has shown steel in a favourable light.

Look at this on doves lead vs steel. the research is good and well thought out, we could never see such research ever carried out here. but those that use steel know its more than capable. and that is about as strong a evidence as we can field here in the UK.

Watch this with an unbiased eye. you might just see steel in a better light.

OH price? Let me know where you can buy 28kgs of 2.8mm 5s  lead shot for Less than £45 +vat. Then i might see how its cheaper.

Meanwhile might i suggest you watch this video.

 

 

 

Clangerman that is Nonsense.

Great research, confirmed what i already thought. 

Steel is perfect for the job, pattern kills 

On 03/07/2020 at 19:34, ClemFandango said:

Do they have bio-wads?

Yes they do, 

bio degradable wad , steel shot and the new quad seal to reduce recoil.. 

https://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12g-dark-storm-precision-steel-biowad

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, Dave at kelton said:

That is fine and understood  everyone to their own. For the opposite reasons I would sooner shoot something vintage or antique from time to time getting the same use out of it as was it’s design over a century ago. I do use my semi autos on the geese and ou on the clays.

The steel shot threat is not stopping me looking for a Dixon or Macnaughton round action either.

And absolutley nothing wrong with any of that dave. Its Just ME I had my fill of big bores and old guns. I still have a few older 1970s Semis and Oddballs a "marlin goose gun 10 But mostly the ubiquitous Brownings and run of the mill fowling fodder. only reason i do use some of the older semi autos, is i like the handling, they have zero nostalgia interest to me.

I use SP10 and Browning gold 10. and , every now and again i still think about getting a user 8 bore bore nothing fancy just one of the ones that occasionally come up for a few grand.  But Then i think back, OK i had some good times with them did it and some more. But I just do not want to Go down that route any more. I drew My Line in the sand pre millennium , Sold my big bores and never regretted a second of that.

Not really looking for another gun of any kind, i might even move a few. But I could get a 16 bore Hammer gun probably a baikal / tula.  for steel . I am just not feeling the Love or the need  of lead some others are. I genuinely think we have big trouble in front of us shooters. But giving up lead IN MY OPINION, Is just not a biggie. Its not even worth loosing sweat over never mind blood & tears.

[Dave at kelton]

24 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

And absolutley nothing wrong with any of that dave. Its Just ME I had my fill of big bores and old guns. I still have a few older 1970s Semis and Oddballs a "marlin goose gun 10 But mostly the ubiquitous Brownings and run of the mill fowling fodder. only reason i do use some of the older semi autos, is i like the handling, they have zero nostalgia interest to me.

I use SP10 and Browning gold 10. and , every now and again i still think about getting a user 8 bore bore nothing fancy just one of the ones that occasionally come up for a few grand.  But Then i think back, OK i had some good times with them did it and some more. But I just do not want to Go down that route any more. I drew My Line in the sand pre millennium , Sold my big bores and never regretted a second of that.

Not really looking for another gun of any kind, i might even move a few. But I could get a 16 bore Hammer gun probably a baikal / tula.  for steel . I am just not feeling the Love or the need  of lead some others are. I genuinely think we have big trouble in front of us shooters. But giving up lead IN MY OPINION, Is just not a biggie. Its not even worth loosing sweat over never mind blood & tears.

Spot on all of that. I use the Browning Gold 10 on the geese or a benelli 12. Both do the job perfectly. I guess it is the romantic in me that draws me to the old stuff and the occasional day in top hat and tails shooting game with the percussion guns.

[wymberley]

24 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

Spot on all of that. I use the Browning Gold 10 on the geese or a benelli 12. Both do the job perfectly. I guess it is the romantic in me that draws me to the old stuff and the occasional day in top hat and tails shooting game with the percussion guns.

Like my old granny used to say, " Style never goes out of fashion".

[lancer425]

2 hours ago, Terry2016 said:

Great research, confirmed what i already thought. 

Steel is perfect for the job, pattern kills 

Yes they do, 

bio degradable wad , steel shot and the new quad seal to reduce recoil.. 

https://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12g-dark-storm-precision-steel-biowad

The sad fact is we here will never see any such research undertaken here, They tried to be as fair and accurate as they could be and it was well thought out from the outset.  the american way of trying to keep shooting sustainable, and with full support of the Government departments  is just not on our List of possibilities. we have our government Bodies trying to stop shooting , not utilise its positive aspects "which are many" for good.

BASC try to Lobby on our behalf but its like wading through treacle for any organisation. the monster that is natural England, and the Police forces of this country and Their fudging and interpretation of Guidance and legislation until the two are indeed impacting our sport. is evidence enough we are in trouble.

An old mate a mad keen fowler in his time, rang me few weeks ago said he was up for renewal in September. And how he had quote. "ive had enough" . It was the medical certification etc. He felt it a lot of faffing and experience for a trip to scotland once a year and a few pigeons, his age 78 and his arthritis etc  never entered his head. He just did not want the hassle. i tried to talk him out of it and offered to help him anyway i could, but no he was determined and polite about it but he felt let down by the law. In his words . I feel like a dirty criminal, and i have never stole or hurt a living soul in my life, and this is the way they thank you".

  I think he is not doing the right thing, or even looking at things from a positive perspective. but what i will say here is i can understand why he feels the way he does, and i dare say there are many old lads just like him writing **** on this sport for very similar reasons. .

[ClemFandango]

4 hours ago, Terry2016 said:

Great research, confirmed what i already thought. 

Steel is perfect for the job, pattern kills 

Yes they do, 

bio degradable wad , steel shot and the new quad seal to reduce recoil.. 

https://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12g-dark-storm-precision-steel-biowad

Thanks very much.