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BASC to cease legal expenses cover wef 31 July 2020


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4 minutes ago, clangerman said:

i would be the first to sign up with a shooting organisation who had more teeth than a stern letter if you hear of one let me know 

Ok, If a stern letter is not good enough. what do you suggest is.

I am intrigued as to what you expect organisations to do other than to try to persuade decision.  This is done by setting out the evidence / benefits of shooting. also that they represent x thousands of people.

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1 minute ago, Terry2016 said:

Ok, If a stern letter is not good enough. what do you suggest is.

I am intrigued as to what you expect organisations to do other than to try to persuade decision.  This is done by setting out the evidence / benefits of shooting. also that they represent x thousands of people.

for a start they could stage a boycott of any manufacturers involved in shooting who do not use their power to support us they stand by while we are going down the pan we have power it’s not being used 

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50 minutes ago, clangerman said:

for a start they could stage a boycott of any manufacturers involved in shooting who do not use their power to support us they stand by while we are going down the pan we have power it’s not being used 

so boycotting manufacturers of shooting clothing brands because they do not support us - how do they not support us ? I would think that many are trade members of organisations paying towards the protection of shooting. 

Making enemies within the industry seems your way - this is not the way forwards. 

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I have thought logically about this issue, and cannot for the life of me figure out where the logic is in reducing services offered without reducing the premiums. It's the equivalent of giving everyone in the BASC a pay increase at our expense for absolutely no good reason. 

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29 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

so boycotting manufacturers of shooting clothing brands because they do not support us - how do they not support us ? I would think that many are trade members of organisations paying towards the protection of shooting. 

 

manufacturers keep very quite to avoid publicity it’s the last thing they want when you take our money you should stand up and be counted IF they chuck organisations a few quid it’s guilt money for failing on the above 

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51 minutes ago, Cannon said:

I have thought logically about this issue, and cannot for the life of me figure out where the logic is in reducing services offered without reducing the premiums. It's the equivalent of giving everyone in the BASC a pay increase at our expense for absolutely no good reason. 

How does this relate to " the equivalent of giving everyone in the BASC a pay increase at our expense for absolutely no good reason".  How could they get a pay increase via this route.? . 

there is a full statement here posted on this thread on 2nd July have any of you read it. ?

"

The full text of the BASC briefing on this topic is as follows:

BASC acts in the best interests of its members and shooting. With regards to the legal expense’s insurance only around 150 (1 in 1000) members a year make a claim, and of those only around a half (1 in 2000 members) have their cases taken up. Yet the legal expenses policy costs almost £1 million. The cost of this insurance continues to rise rapidly each year, whilst at the same time stricter conditions and exclusions are being added to the policy.

The legal expenses insurance policy is no longer providing a product which is in the best interests of members. As a result, BASC Council has decided to remove it from the membership package from July 31, 2020.

We have not taken this decision lightly.

The decision does not affect the membership liability or personal accident insurances which includes:

  • up to £10 million Public Liability Cover
  • up to £10 million Employer Liability Cover
  • up to £10 million Product Liability Cover
  • up to £50,000 cover for personal accidents resulting in the loss of sight, hearing, or limbs

Our firearms teams will still be on hand to provide advice and guidance to all members on firearms and licencing matters. Our public liability and personal accident insurances are unaffected and remain in place.

BASC’s resources are managed by Council so that we can continue to fight for shooting and benefit members.

Legal expenses insurance Q&A

Q: When will he cover end?

A: This insurance cover will cease on 31st July 2020.

Q: Why is BASC making this change?

A: The cost of paying for this type of insurance is increasing at an astronomic level, it’s not fair that all members should be paying for a cover that most members will never use, that is not in the best interests of our members and is potentially against the Financial Conduct Authority rules.

Q: Will this decrease the cost of membership?

A: No, the cost of providing insurances as part of the membership package is approximately £13.50. The cost varies each month depending on the size of the membership and of course at renewal when the annual premium is calculated. The rest of the membership subscriptions goes to the running of the Association and all the additional activities we undertake like judicial reviews for example. Partial refunds will also not be given for the reason stated above.

Q: In the years that the policy has been in place, has it made much difference?

A: Whereas there have been some individual successes the police have maintained gross inconsistency, indeed in some cases it seems to have been worse.

Q: Will I still get help from the BASC Firearms team with issues I may have with the possession and use of firearms?

A: Yes, absolutely, the firearms team within BASC are a unique member benefit and will now be able to focus even more on direct assistance of members.

Q: What are the BASC firearms team going to do to help?

A: The BASC firearms team will continue to operate at a strategic level lobbying the Policing minister, Home Office, and liaising with National Police Chiefs Council Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group to represent shooters interests and strive for a fair and consistent licensing system.

Q: The cost of insurance is advertised as £13.50 yet we are saying that it is too expensive why is that?

A: £13.50 is an approximate cost of the insurance element and it varies from month to month and year to year depending on the number of members and the cost of renewing the policies. The significant increase in the cost of the LEI would increase the approximate cost greatly and impact our financial resources to enable us to provide all our current services.

The BASC firearms experts are on hand to give direct help, support and advice to individual members on specific firearms licencing and possession issues."

Edited by lancer425
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27 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

How does this relate to " the equivalent of giving everyone in the BASC a pay increase at our expense for absolutely no good reason".  How could they get a pay increase via this route.? . 

there is a full statement here posted on this thread on 2nd July have any of you read it. ?

"

Conor O'Gorman   

 

The full text of the BASC briefing on this topic is as follows:

BASC acts in the best interests of its members and shooting. With regards to the legal expense’s insurance only around 150 (1 in 1000) members a year make a claim, and of those only around a half (1 in 2000 members) have their cases taken up. Yet the legal expenses policy costs almost £1 million. The cost of this insurance continues to rise rapidly each year, whilst at the same time stricter conditions and exclusions are being added to the policy.

The legal expenses insurance policy is no longer providing a product which is in the best interests of members. As a result, BASC Council has decided to remove it from the membership package from July 31, 2020.

We have not taken this decision lightly.

The decision does not affect the membership liability or personal accident insurances which includes:

  • up to £10 million Public Liability Cover
  • up to £10 million Employer Liability Cover
  • up to £10 million Product Liability Cover
  • up to £50,000 cover for personal accidents resulting in the loss of sight, hearing, or limbs

Our firearms teams will still be on hand to provide advice and guidance to all members on firearms and licencing matters. Our public liability and personal accident insurances are unaffected and remain in place.

BASC’s resources are managed by Council so that we can continue to fight for shooting and benefit members.

Legal expenses insurance Q&A

Q: When will he cover end?

A: This insurance cover will cease on 31st July 2020.

Q: Why is BASC making this change?

A: The cost of paying for this type of insurance is increasing at an astronomic level, it’s not fair that all members should be paying for a cover that most members will never use, that is not in the best interests of our members and is potentially against the Financial Conduct Authority rules.

Q: Will this decrease the cost of membership?

A: No, the cost of providing insurances as part of the membership package is approximately £13.50. The cost varies each month depending on the size of the membership and of course at renewal when the annual premium is calculated. The rest of the membership subscriptions goes to the running of the Association and all the additional activities we undertake like judicial reviews for example. Partial refunds will also not be given for the reason stated above.

Q: In the years that the policy has been in place, has it made much difference?

A: Whereas there have been some individual successes the police have maintained gross inconsistency, indeed in some cases it seems to have been worse.

Q: Will I still get help from the BASC Firearms team with issues I may have with the possession and use of firearms?

A: Yes, absolutely, the firearms team within BASC are a unique member benefit and will now be able to focus even more on direct assistance of members.

Q: What are the BASC firearms team going to do to help?

A: The BASC firearms team will continue to operate at a strategic level lobbying the Policing minister, Home Office, and liaising with National Police Chiefs Council Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group to represent shooters interests and strive for a fair and consistent licensing system.

Q: The cost of insurance is advertised as £13.50 yet we are saying that it is too expensive why is that?

A: £13.50 is an approximate cost of the insurance element and it varies from month to month and year to year depending on the number of members and the cost of renewing the policies. The significant increase in the cost of the LEI would increase the approximate cost greatly and impact our financial resources to enable us to provide all our current services.

The BASC firearms experts are on hand to give direct help, support and advice to individual members on specific firearms licencing and possession issues."

At the end of the month they are set to earn an extra £13.50 per member per annum for offering less services. I have read the statement in full, and I would like for you to point out the issue with my original statement? There is no mention of where the additional £13.50 will be used. No explanation at all. Something along the lines of 'we will redirect the additional funds into another part of the business' would have at least gave the members some sort of understanding, but no. It's all a mystery at the minute. The cost of running the organisation will eat into the organisations pot a lot less at the end of this month, so where are these additional funds being diverted to? From what I can see (judging by the BASCs actions and the inactions of some of its representatives), the organisation is ******* on its members and telling them that it's raining.

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7 hours ago, Cannon said:

At the end of the month they are set to earn an extra £13.50 per member per annum for offering less services. I have read the statement in full, and I would like for you to point out the issue with my original statement? There is no mention of where the additional £13.50 will be used. No explanation at all. Something along the lines of 'we will redirect the additional funds into another part of the business' would have at least gave the members some sort of understanding, but no. It's all a mystery at the minute. The cost of running the organisation will eat into the organisations pot a lot less at the end of this month, so where are these additional funds being diverted to? From what I can see (judging by the BASCs actions and the inactions of some of its representatives), the organisation is ******* on its members and telling them that it's raining.

Reading there statement in the email. I assume £13.50 is the total insurance cost as around 150000 members comes out at over 2 million pounds. So i would think an extra £7 would cover the total cost. 

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Why don`t BASC simply issue a statement to members in which they undertake to defend the very small minority who fall foul of over zealous Police actions from the not inconsiderable coffers that we have ???? If there are so few it must be possible !

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13 hours ago, Terry2016 said:

You misunderstand my point -  BASC are the ones fighting the challenges because they have the funds and the staff resource

They have the funds and resource, but not the will to fight, because it might put too large a drain on those funds and resources! 

Would it have been too much to consult members on the way forward in some matters? 

Would it have been better to offer the legal cover as an add on for those that want it?

But no, they've saved a £million, with no actual indication of where those resources are going? That's members money disappearing into the ether. 

12 hours ago, lancer425 said:

What  was that a bowel movement, get a grip man.

Are you on the payroll? No well just keep paying your subs, and deluding yourself you are 'saving' shooting. 

The backlash on here and elsewhere should have rattled BASCs cage, they SHOULD be concerned that they has upset members, I and others have emailed them. Their response.. Nothing. 

Such is their contempt for ordinary shooters, and there lies the problem. 

It's a disconnect from those that actually pay some of their wages/bills. 

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10 hours ago, Cannon said:

At the end of the month they are set to earn an extra £13.50 per member per annum for offering less services. I have read the statement in full, and I would like for you to point out the issue with my original statement? There is no mention of where the additional £13.50 will be used. No explanation at all. Something along the lines of 'we will redirect the additional funds into another part of the business' would have at least gave the members some sort of understanding, but no. It's all a mystery at the minute. The cost of running the organisation will eat into the organisations pot a lot less at the end of this month, so where are these additional funds being diverted to? From what I can see (judging by the BASCs actions and the inactions of some of its representatives), the organisation is ******* on its members and telling them that it's raining.

You wanted a good reason Read the statement. You got an explanation there. The fact it is not to your liking tough.

It makes complete sense  to use funds wisely and 1 in 1000 members using the service, and 1 in 2000 being taken up is not good numbers. Basc are doing the right thing.

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Perhaps standard membership with a slightly reduced fee and legal enhanced membership at a slightly increased cost option would work. It a shame BASC didn't raise this for discussion before dropping their like it or lump it bomb. 

Sure there'd still be outrage but the potential would be there for those it's important enough to. For me BASC has dropped the main reason I had for remaining a member.

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20 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

You wanted a good reason Read the statement. You got an explanation there. The fact it is not to your liking tough.

There you have it, that could be straight from the BASC reps own words. 

You know next time you go to renew your house or car insurance, and they double the premium, or remove a critical element, then tell you if you don't like it, tough. 

What will you do? 

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25 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

You wanted a good reason Read the statement. You got an explanation there. The fact it is not to your liking tough.

It makes complete sense  to use funds wisely and 1 in 1000 members using the service, and 1 in 2000 being taken up is not good numbers. Basc are doing the right thing.

Like many other members I will be walking away at the end of the month. Your attitude seems to imply that those reacting negatively to the BASCs decision are incapable of reasoned and intellectual thought. I would disagree that they are doing the right thing. As a small shooting community you often hear of licencing issues that have came about as a result of someones misinterpretation of legislation. The BASC have said that not enough members are using the service? An awful lot more members would avail of the service if the BASC had the drive to fight their corner more often. The way in which the BASC has handled this is a slap in the face for a lot of members. No consultation, no refunds or reduced fees, no response to our backlash. It really is sticking two fingers up to each and every member.

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28 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Perhaps standard membership with a slightly reduced fee and legal enhanced membership at a slightly increased cost option would work. It a shame BASC didn't raise this for discussion before dropping their like it or lump it bomb. 

Sure there'd still be outrage but the potential would be there for those it's important enough to. For me BASC has dropped the main reason I had for remaining a member.

Correct me if I`m wrong but I seem to recall that when the legal insurance was first mooted ,it was going to be offered as an`add on` but then was included in membership?????  The lack of prior discussion with the membership is the real nub of this current unrest and it is sadly a recurring theme with BASC lately.This is very poor when comms have never been more readily available.

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52 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

Are you on the payroll? No well just keep paying your subs, and deluding yourself you are 'saving' shooting. 

The backlash on here and elsewhere should have rattled BASCs cage, they SHOULD be concerned that they has upset members, I and others have emailed them. Their response.. Nothing. 

Such is their contempt for ordinary shooters, and there lies the problem. 

It's a disconnect from those that actually pay some of their wages/bills. 

 NO i do not work for BASC or any other shooting organisation. And i am not delusional BASC are saving shooting. That will need a miracle not BASC. BASC offer a myriad of support and assistance to clubs and individuals. And for the fee i feel i get more than my moneys worth every year.  BASC are not in government they can only Lobby on our behalf, but they have experience they can assist clubs and members with if the members so wish.  Any backlash that occurs will be born out of the school playground PILE ON mentality that exists in much of todays online media. And BASC are powerless to do anything about this. But BASC will be damned if they do and damned if they dont, its how it is with any government or organisation the world over. You can not please everybody, you will make enemies its unavoidable.

  BASC can be fine tuned to exactly what shooters want it to be, GET involved CHANGE IT if your not happy. Crying and snivelling on here is helping no one.

Some on here clearly have very strong opinions on what BASC should and should not be doing, Post after post of Pointless gripe and bellyaching about BASc" OH I AN WALKING **** BASC"  Fine walk then, but you could grow a spine and Get active get on council or put a like minded soul in the hot seat for you. The Answer is there has been forever, but will we see a CHAMPION FOR LAW ORDER AND JUSTICE IN BASC Spawned out of the Pigeon watch massive????.  OH! i do hope so, a real stalwart for shooting, Who gets in there changes BASC and hopefully stops the moaning on here about basc. 

BUT NO! we wont see that, nothing like it just verbal tennis on threads just like this one all the time.

WELL GO ON! prove me wrong. get there do it. The whole world is watching to see your next move.

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Cannon said:

I have thought logically about this issue, and cannot for the life of me figure out where the logic is in reducing services offered without reducing the premiums. It's the equivalent of giving everyone in the BASC a pay increase at our expense for absolutely no good reason. 

Have you seen this ? BASC launch 7 figure fighting fund..... maybe thats where the extra funds will go and we will be better off for it ..

https://basc.org.uk/basc-launches-legal-fighting-fund/

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

They have the funds and resource, but not the will to fight, because it might put too large a drain on those funds and resources! 

Would it have been too much to consult members on the way forward in some matters? 

Would it have been better to offer the legal cover as an add on for those that want it?

But no, they've saved a £million, with no actual indication of where those resources are going? That's members money disappearing into the ether. 

Are you on the payroll? No well just keep paying your subs, and deluding yourself you are 'saving' shooting. 

The backlash on here and elsewhere should have rattled BASCs cage, they SHOULD be concerned that they has upset members, I and others have emailed them. Their response.. Nothing. 

Such is their contempt for ordinary shooters, and there lies the problem. 

It's a disconnect from those that actually pay some of their wages/bills. 

They have not saved a million they have put it to a fighting fund ....

https://basc.org.uk/basc-launches-legal-fighting-fund/

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Interesting subject , once the cops know it's not in place anymore guess what's going to happen .......

It's a bit like the nuclear arms thing no have them and you soon get pushed around  ! This is what happens when you elect land surveyors,  failed politicians and air gunners to the committee.  Funny how the feos are very keen to ask if your a BASC member . I had Basc firearms offer to take a case but it wasnt worth the temporary revocation so I turned the other cheak but believe me Firearms departments will be rubbing thier hands with glee and many who can will be going with someone else as thier org . 

Cost effectiveness?  Very doubtful Indeed but I think blame should be placed on those who vote the wrong people onto the board 

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6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

BASC can be fine tuned to exactly what shooters want it to be

As long as you dont want legal cover.

6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

GET involved CHANGE IT if your not happy.

I have , moved over to C3 , saved myself some money , and got legal cover, cheers !

7 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Crying and snivelling on here is helping no one.

Its hardly crying and snivelling, thats really what you are doing , because your beloved BASC is getting a deserved whupping.
I wanted answers , clarification, and maybe a reversal of their highly unpopular decision, I got talked down to like I was scum, then ignored.
Cheers BASC , and goodbye.

11 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Get active get on council or put a like minded soul in the hot seat for you.

I think you need a title or letters after your name to be able to do that.
Get it through your head, they dont want people like us , they want corporate spenders and big shoots/landowners, the dross can leave as far as theyre concerned.

 

5 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

Have you seen this ? BASC launch 7 figure fighting fund..... maybe thats where the extra funds will go and we will be better off for it ..

https://basc.org.uk/basc-launches-legal-fighting-fund/

They have not saved a million they have put it to a fighting fund ....

https://basc.org.uk/basc-launches-legal-fighting-fund/

Yeah , well if thats supposed to head off the disgruntled at the pass, note the date, today.
Funny how they didnt release that at the time of the legal cover release ?
Makes no odds to me, plus its just a promise to help shootings future,  theyre already supposed to be doing that anyway.

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2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

What will you do? 

Nothing i am all good with BASC, it is logical to me and just sensible money management for the greater good. As we speak BASC are spending our money to uphold our sport. i see nothing not to like.

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