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9 hours ago, holloway said:

As I said suitable ammunition will be developed in time ,stay calm no need to panic or over react it’s not been banned yet ,a lot can change in 5 years.

 

1 hour ago, holloway said:

Sorry never had anything to do with firearms can’t have an opinion on something I have no experience of .

 

But u claim ALL suitable ammo will be developed but now ur saying u haven't a clue about firearms.

Does that not count as ammo???

The shotgun ammo is far easier solved althou would be easier if they increased the pressure/load ratings for UK factory shells.

But still an issue with plastic wads

 

Firearms users use lead ammo and will be dragged down with this gross stupidity just like shotgun users. This volantry stupidity is far more wide reaching than just shot guns

Basc have very clearly never gave small bore rifles and esp air guns 1 second of thought, which is just typical of them

 

Non toxic bullets in rifles is a far more complicated issue, airguns possibly the hardest off all.

Many common calibres could become almost obsolete as they really struggle to either chamber or stabilise a non toxic bullet

Are ur big multi national ammo makers really going to spend masses of money developing non toxic 22lr or air gun pellets, the UK market is fairly tiny and will never be that profitable.

Let's be honest here with basc as our saviours how long does shooting in UK really have?? 

I've never been so pessimistic about shootings long term future in this country, I'd say all our gun slips are hanging on shoogily pegs at moment

Basc are far more likely to accidentally knock the peg out off the wall ( most likely through more complete stupidity or just sitting back and saying northing like on trophy hunting/importing ban) than firm it up

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2 minutes ago, scotslad said:

 

 

But u claim ALL suitable ammo will be developed but now ur saying u haven't a clue about firearms.

Does that not count as ammo???

The shotgun ammo is far easier solved althou would be easier if they increased the pressure/load ratings for UK factory shells.

But still an issue with plastic wads

 

Firearms users use lead ammo and will be dragged down with this gross stupidity just like shotgun users. This volantry stupidity is far more wide reaching than just shot guns

Basc have very clearly never gave small bore rifles and esp air guns 1 second of thought, which is just typical of them

 

Non toxic bullets in rifles is a far more complicated issue, airguns possibly the hardest off all.

Many common calibres could become almost obsolete as they really struggle to either chamber or stabilise a non toxic bullet

Are ur big multi national ammo makers really going to spend masses of money developing non toxic 22lr or air gun pellets, the UK market is fairly tiny and will never be that profitable.

Let's be honest here with basc as our saviours how long does shooting in UK really have?? 

I've never been so pessimistic about shootings long term future in this country, I'd say all our gun slips are hanging on shoogily pegs at moment

Basc are far more likely to accidentally knock the peg out off the wall ( most likely through more complete stupidity or just sitting back and saying northing like on trophy hunting/importing ban) than firm it up

How long does shooting have ?  unless it can be proven that shooting can save the world it will be banned in this country in 30 yrs....... in my opinion

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2 hours ago, Scully said:

The only fact we need to be concerned with is that of public perception, and public perception is that eating meat which has been shot with lead shot is dangerous. It doesn’t matter that no one has died as a result of eating it, nor that the risks of eating it are negligible; public perception is everything, and that of the supermarkets. If the supermarkets tell their suppliers that they won’t buy produce from them if it contains lead shot, or even if their produce has been shot over ( such as crops ) with lead shot, then it will have to go. Markets dictate policy, not shooters, and the markets couldn’t care less what shooters think. 

And the ONLY reason that is now an issue is because of the "big bag" shoots that use as a justification for what they do the argument that what they shoot "goes into the food chain".

The shoot that shares its game...be that two hundred shot or more...between its guns, its beaters, its pickers-up and the rest goes to a traditional "fur and feather" sale at a local Cattle Market doesn't need to worry that it's bag has been shot with lead shot.

Yet because of these "big bag" shoots that, frankly, use pheasants as little more than feathered clay pigeons this problem has now arisen. The whole issue has been driven IMHO by the attempt of these "big bag" shoots to justify the massive release of put-down birds by their claims that this glut (that once shot, is so great that the shoot then can't be disposed of internally or through traditional outlets) "goes into the food chain".

As I have said steel shot will not save these enterprises as once the compensation claims start arriving thick and fast for teeth broken by steel shot the supermarkets will stop selling game shot with such.

Edited by enfieldspares
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1 hour ago, Scully said:

Not everyone wants to load their own. BASC stated they wouldn’t sanction a lead ban until there was a practical, efficient and affordable alternative. It would seem that a practical alternative isn’t available for everyone, not even if you reload....not without plastic anyhow. 

Our shooting orgs have now proposed a voluntary lead ammunition ban, but not for rifles. If lead shot is toxic then lead ammunition is toxic, in whatever form, but the NGO have trouble in explaining why the voluntary phase out only applies to lead shot, so much trouble in fact that they’ve stopped returning my calls.

I only have a .22rf now, but it uses toxic lead ammunition. 
 

I was thinking about that one ,maybe because a bullet wouldn’t be ingested by birds it’s not such an issue ,that’s the reason I have stopped using lead,I have also started using the cardboard shot cups in 12 ga  ,but also granted it may take a while for alternative caliber products to become available .

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Non toxic tin air gun pellets do currently exist and are indeed sold here in the UK. I bought some from the Gunshop at Rugby.

Do they kill as well as lead pellets? Well there's the issue isn't it. To do so they'd have to start from the gun at a a higher velocity as, being tin, they shed that velocity faster than will a lead pellet. And of course being of lighter mass it won't penetrate as well nor, being of tin, expand as well. 

All well and good then? Oh! Oh dear! Muzzle energy is calculated using velocity squared and therefore a higher velocity will give a higher muzzle energy of over that 12 ft/lbs limit here in GB. So unless that 12 ft/lbs is raised we will see increased wounding of quarry. Tin pellets in air rifles. Oh dear. 

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2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Nice but try doing that with biodegradable wads in your 16ga, or 28ga or .410 they are not making any yet and will they, that is the big question, then will they reach the home loaders as components? The U.K. market is tiny and may not justify such investment.

Then steel need to be larger in diameter driven fast to be effective Giving more recoil and less pattern. Thanks but I will wait until we have no legal choice but to use steel.

I am sure that inside 5 years wads will become available as will shop bought cartridges, as for larger shot use and more recoil and worse patterns simply nonsense it can be soft on the shoulder lower recoil and better patterning especially with smaller shot .

1 hour ago, London Best said:

You are not an MP then?

Good point

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1 hour ago, scotslad said:

 

 

But u claim ALL suitable ammo will be developed but now ur saying u haven't a clue about firearms.

Does that not count as ammo???

The shotgun ammo is far easier solved althou would be easier if they increased the pressure/load ratings for UK factory shells.

But still an issue with plastic wads

 

Firearms users use lead ammo and will be dragged down with this gross stupidity just like shotgun users. This volantry stupidity is far more wide reaching than just shot guns

Basc have very clearly never gave small bore rifles and esp air guns 1 second of thought, which is just typical of them

 

Non toxic bullets in rifles is a far more complicated issue, airguns possibly the hardest off all.

Many common calibres could become almost obsolete as they really struggle to either chamber or stabilise a non toxic bullet

Are ur big multi national ammo makers really going to spend masses of money developing non toxic 22lr or air gun pellets, the UK market is fairly tiny and will never be that profitable.

Let's be honest here with basc as our saviours how long does shooting in UK really have?? 

I've never been so pessimistic about shootings long term future in this country, I'd say all our gun slips are hanging on shoogily pegs at moment

Basc are far more likely to accidentally knock the peg out off the wall ( most likely through more complete stupidity or just sitting back and saying northing like on trophy hunting/importing ban) than firm it up

Sorry mate what I am saying is I have no experience so can’t comment on firearms I just think that many panic and get very negative .For me a more positive attitude works better we have travelled to space and back surely lead shot /bullets should be solvable,I have resolved any issues I had with it all anyway.

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What was stated back in February by nine shooting and rural organisations was as follows:

In consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad, we wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years. 

We are jointly calling for our members to engage in this transition and work with us, the Gun Trade Association and the cartridge manufacturers to ensure that further viable alternatives are developed for every situation involving live quarry. This is an opportunity to take the initiative and ensure the reputation of the shooting community, as custodians of the countryside, is both maintained and enhanced.

For more information visit https://basc.org.uk/lead/ 

Articles and videos are available to read/watch via BASC website here:
https://basc.org.uk/sustainable-ammunition-articles/

These cover many of the insightful points already in this thread. BASC will continue to compile this resource.

There is currently no legal cliff face for a complete lead ammunition ban and that is thanks to BASC and other shooting and rural organisations in the UK and mainland Europe fighting against any such ban.

Viable alternatives to lead ammunition are simply not yet available in sufficient quantities or calibres either here or in mainland Europe.

BASC will continue to fight against disproportionate and unsubstantiated restrictions on the use of lead ammunition in the UK. We have been leading this fight for 40 years.

At the same time, together with eight other UK organisations, we are encouraging a smooth voluntary transition away from the use of lead shot in shotguns for live quarry over the next five years.  

These areas of work are not mutually exclusive.

In summary we are working to prevent politically motivated bans whilst encouraging a five year research and development period for viable alternatives for live quarry shooting using shotguns.

As regards the evidence of the impact of lead ammunition on human health and the environment the evidence is significant and continues to grow. 

For a summary see https://www.gwct.org.uk/policy/briefings/lead-ammunition/ 

When I joined BASC 17 years ago working on wildfowling leases and consents I recall many wildfowlers who refuted the evidence supporting a lead shot ban in wetlands that came into effect in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and some accused BASC and others of selling shooting down the river etc. So much time and resource was wasted on infighting.

Move forward almost a generation (!) and the very same evidence that justified a lead shot ban in wetlands all those years ago now seems widely accepted by wildfowlers and those from other shooting disciplines?

The evidence didn't change. The presence of lead shot continues to have a negative impact in wetlands. Acceptance of the evidence in the shooting community DID change. Whether many actually took the time to read the evidence on the negative impact of lead shot in wetlands then and now is a moot point though.

We are not unique in the UK as a shooting community dealing with change. 

See the following article "Lessons learned from 33 years of lead shot regulation in Denmark":
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30506141/ 

Look at this another way.

Most shooters believe in the evidence that shooting helps conservation and, for example, that controlled burning of heather helps protect peat stores.

The antis do not believe the evidence.

So who is right? Who has what agenda to back their views?

Those of us lashing out at BASC and other shooting and rural organisations might consider what actually is our own agenda on lead ammunition?

The difficulty we are all having with the idea of change to our use of lead ammunition is absolutely understandable.

Neither me, nor you, nor anyone else has a monopoly on how this is going to play out. 

But perhaps we can each try to read more and get more involved ahead of the changes ahead?

BASC and the CA have begun sustainable ammunition workshops.

For more insight on what is involved see:
https://basc.org.uk/try-bascs-sustainable-ammunition-days/

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Scully,

 All valuable points that you have made , I could not agree more .

But that is not the issue , we do not have to kill obscene numbers of Game , we need to be sportsmen and shoot enough for our own consumption and that of friends . Which once again highlights the wrong direction that BASC sometimes take such as now pandering to the demands of the very large shoots and aligning with the Game Alliance which if it worked correctly would really be fantastic , but has the G.A. really had a good effect on the game marketing strategy?

I remember it wasn't so long ago that BASC were raising the issue of Caged bird rearing by the large producers , now surprise ,surprise they seem to be in bed with them!

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14 hours ago, Walker570 said:

What do you suggest I shoot through my Army & Navy 16 gauge then  circa 1900 ?   ......... at a sensible price.   Or do I scrap it and buy something inferior.

I suggest you shoot steel with a biodegradable wad when they are available or bismuth .

or get a new gun.. if you want to continue to shoot that is... of course.. 

11 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

You do notice that all the pro steel shooters think the world only shoots modern 12gauge guns.

seems not so?

IMG_7266.jpg

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Just now, Terry2016 said:

I suggest you shoot steel with a biodegradable wad when they are available or bismuth .

or get a new gun.. if you want to continue to shoot that is... of course.. 

I don't want a new gun to start with, the one I have is a delight to shoot.  I shoot Bismuth now at waterfowl but they need to bring the price down .  Can YOU tell me how many people have died from eating game shot with lead ?  If you consider all the lead shot lying in the countryside today if it is as bad as these people say we should all be dead.

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1 minute ago, Walker570 said:

I don't want a new gun to start with, the one I have is a delight to shoot.  I shoot Bismuth now at waterfowl but they need to bring the price down .  Can YOU tell me how many people have died from eating game shot with lead ?  If you consider all the lead shot lying in the countryside today if it is as bad as these people say we should all be dead.

Yes i am sure the gun is very nice but if there is a ban the gun you choose to only shoot lead though will be no longer of use, therefore you are better of shooting steel through it, steel works well enough and is cheap. 

Its not about people dying ? its about lead being toxic and that makes people seriously ill. It also causes the death of many birds each year. if there is something else then we should use it. 

Key facts from WHO

  • Lead is a cumulative toxicant that affects multiple body systems and is particularly harmful to young children.
  • Lead in the body is distributed to the brain, liver, kidney and bones. It is stored in the teeth and bones, where it accumulates over time. Human exposure is usually assessed through the measurement of lead in blood.
  • Lead in bone is released into blood during pregnancy and becomes a source of exposure to the developing fetus.
  • There is no level of exposure to lead that is known to be without harmful effects.
  • Lead exposure is preventable.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/lead-poisoning-and-health

Keys Fact from GWCT on Wildbirds

How big is the problem?
Recent published estimates (2015) suggest 50,000-100,000 wildfowl die each year from lead poisoning in the UK, with between 200,000 and 400,000 thought to suffer welfare effects from ingestion or through embedded lead.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/policy/briefings/lead-ammunition/

Have a read.... 

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Just now, Terry2016 said:

Yes i am sure the gun is very nice but if there is a ban the gun you choose to only shoot lead though will be no longer of use, therefore you are better of shooting steel through it, steel works well enough and is cheap. 

Its not about people dying ? its about lead being toxic and that makes people seriously ill. It also causes the death of many birds each year. if there is something else then we should use it. 

Key facts from WHO

  • Lead is a cumulative toxicant that affects multiple body systems and is particularly harmful to young children.
  • Lead in the body is distributed to the brain, liver, kidney and bones. It is stored in the teeth and bones, where it accumulates over time. Human exposure is usually assessed through the measurement of lead in blood.
  • Lead in bone is released into blood during pregnancy and becomes a source of exposure to the developing fetus.
  • There is no level of exposure to lead that is known to be without harmful effects.
  • Lead exposure is preventable.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/lead-poisoning-and-health

Keys Fact from GWCT on Wildbirds

How big is the problem?
Recent published estimates (2015) suggest 50,000-100,000 wildfowl die each year from lead poisoning in the UK, with between 200,000 and 400,000 thought to suffer welfare effects from ingestion or through embedded lead.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/policy/briefings/lead-ammunition/

Have a read.... 

We should perhaps then plan to have tobacco and alcohol banned as well because far far more people die of that every day than have died from lead poisening over the last 50yrs or more.

Regarding wildlife, the amount of lead shot fired in my lifetime (80yrs) should have laid everything breathing low and the countryside should be devoid of any living thing.

 

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16 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

I don't want a new gun to start with, the one I have is a delight to shoot.  I shoot Bismuth now at waterfowl but they need to bring the price down .  Can YOU tell me how many people have died from eating game shot with lead ?  If you consider all the lead shot lying in the countryside today if it is as bad as these people say we should all be dead.

There have been at least 82 research papers published on the impact of lead ammunition on wildlife since the Lead Ammunition Group submitted its report to Defra in 2015.

These are listed here:

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/information/#toggle-id-2

In the 2015 LAG report are the lists of all the previous research papers

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LAG-Report-June-2015-without-Appendices.pdf

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LAG-Report-June-2015-Appendices-without-Appendix-6.pdf

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/LAG-Report-June-2015-RISK-MITIGATION-REGISTER-Appendix-6.pdf

 Other information that may be of interest is as follows:

 Guns On Pegs update and survey results

https://www.gunsonpegs.com/articles/cartridges/lead-shot-to-be-phased-out

 GWCT lead shot survey results:

https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2020/february/lead-shot-what-did-you-tell-us/

 Vintage Guns article

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/a-voluntary-phase-out-of-lead-shot-

 Gun Trade Association briefing

https://gtaltd.co.uk/news/lead-alternatives/60

What was stated back in February by nine shooting and rural organisations was as follows:

In consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad, we wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years. 

We are jointly calling for our members to engage in this transition and work with us, the Gun Trade Association and the cartridge manufacturers to ensure that further viable alternatives are developed for every situation involving live quarry. This is an opportunity to take the initiative and ensure the reputation of the shooting community, as custodians of the countryside, is both maintained and enhanced.

For more information visit https://basc.org.uk/lead/ 

Articles and videos are available to read/watch via BASC website here:
https://basc.org.uk/sustainable-ammunition-articles/

These cover many of the insightful points already in this thread. BASC will continue to compile this resource.

There is currently no legal cliff face for a complete lead ammunition ban and that is thanks to BASC and other shooting and rural organisations in the UK and mainland Europe fighting against any such ban.

Viable alternatives to lead ammunition are simply not yet available in sufficient quantities or calibres either here or in mainland Europe.

BASC will continue to fight against disproportionate and unsubstantiated restrictions on the use of lead ammunition in the UK. We have been leading this fight for 40 years.

At the same time, together with eight other UK organisations, we are encouraging a smooth voluntary transition away from the use of lead shot in shotguns for live quarry over the next five years.  

These areas of work are not mutually exclusive.

In summary we are working to prevent politically motivated bans whilst encouraging a five year research and development period for viable alternatives for live quarry shooting using shotguns.

As regards the evidence of the impact of lead ammunition on human health and the environment the evidence is significant and continues to grow. 

For a summary see https://www.gwct.org.uk/policy/briefings/lead-ammunition/ 

When I joined BASC 17 years ago working on wildfowling leases and consents I recall many wildfowlers who refuted the evidence supporting a lead shot ban in wetlands that came into effect in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and some accused BASC and others of selling shooting down the river etc. So much time and resource was wasted on infighting.

Move forward almost a generation (!) and the very same evidence that justified a lead shot ban in wetlands all those years ago now seems widely accepted by wildfowlers and those from other shooting disciplines?

The evidence didn't change. The presence of lead shot continues to have a negative impact in wetlands. Acceptance of the evidence in the shooting community DID change. Whether many actually took the time to read the evidence on the negative impact of lead shot in wetlands then and now is a moot point though.

We are not unique in the UK as a shooting community dealing with change. 

See the following article "Lessons learned from 33 years of lead shot regulation in Denmark":
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30506141/ 

Look at this another way.

Most shooters believe in the evidence that shooting helps conservation and, for example, that controlled burning of heather helps protect peat stores.

The antis do not believe the evidence.

So who is right? Who has what agenda to back their views?

Those of us lashing out at BASC and other shooting and rural organisations might consider what actually is our own agenda on lead ammunition?

The difficulty we are all having with the idea of change to our use of lead ammunition is absolutely understandable.

Neither me, nor you, nor anyone else has a monopoly on how this is going to play out. 

But perhaps we can each try to read more and get more involved ahead of the changes ahead?

BASC and the CA have begun sustainable ammunition workshops.

For more insight on what is involved see:
https://basc.org.uk/try-bascs-sustainable-ammunition-days/

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

We should perhaps then plan to have tobacco and alcohol banned as well because far far more people die of that every day than have died from lead poisening over the last 50yrs or more.

Regarding wildlife, the amount of lead shot fired in my lifetime (80yrs) should have laid everything breathing low and the countryside should be devoid of any living thing.

 

Answers like that is what gives shooting a bad name no one is planning a ban, a transition too non toxic has been requested, the trouble is you seem to want to ignore the facts.

Many birds may have died through lead ingestion that you have shot.. you wouldn't know. 

A GWCT study published in 2005 found that 4.5% of discovered dead birds contained lead shot in their gizzards and estimated that 1.2% of living wild grey partridges contained ingested lead shot at any one time. Other UK studies report similar findings in pheasants and red-legged partridge but do not record impacts on bird health and welfare. A Canadian study found elevated levels of lead in American woodcock that were traced back to lead shot ingestion.

on top of this still around 100,000 waterfowl die each year in the uk due to ingestion if that doesn't make you think we need to do something well ......

19 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

There have been at least 82 research papers published on the impact of lead ammunition on wildlife since the Lead Ammunition Group submitted its report to Defra in 2015.

These are listed here:

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/information/#toggle-id-2

In the 2015 LAG report are the lists of all the previous research papers

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LAG-Report-June-2015-without-Appendices.pdf

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LAG-Report-June-2015-Appendices-without-Appendix-6.pdf

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/LAG-Report-June-2015-RISK-MITIGATION-REGISTER-Appendix-6.pdf

 Other information that may be of interest is as follows:

 Guns On Pegs update and survey results

https://www.gunsonpegs.com/articles/cartridges/lead-shot-to-be-phased-out

 GWCT lead shot survey results:

https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2020/february/lead-shot-what-did-you-tell-us/

 Vintage Guns article

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/a-voluntary-phase-out-of-lead-shot-

 Gun Trade Association briefing

https://gtaltd.co.uk/news/lead-alternatives/60

What was stated back in February by nine shooting and rural organisations was as follows:

In consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad, we wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years. 

We are jointly calling for our members to engage in this transition and work with us, the Gun Trade Association and the cartridge manufacturers to ensure that further viable alternatives are developed for every situation involving live quarry. This is an opportunity to take the initiative and ensure the reputation of the shooting community, as custodians of the countryside, is both maintained and enhanced.

For more information visit https://basc.org.uk/lead/ 

Articles and videos are available to read/watch via BASC website here:
https://basc.org.uk/sustainable-ammunition-articles/

These cover many of the insightful points already in this thread. BASC will continue to compile this resource.

There is currently no legal cliff face for a complete lead ammunition ban and that is thanks to BASC and other shooting and rural organisations in the UK and mainland Europe fighting against any such ban.

Viable alternatives to lead ammunition are simply not yet available in sufficient quantities or calibres either here or in mainland Europe.

BASC will continue to fight against disproportionate and unsubstantiated restrictions on the use of lead ammunition in the UK. We have been leading this fight for 40 years.

At the same time, together with eight other UK organisations, we are encouraging a smooth voluntary transition away from the use of lead shot in shotguns for live quarry over the next five years.  

These areas of work are not mutually exclusive.

In summary we are working to prevent politically motivated bans whilst encouraging a five year research and development period for viable alternatives for live quarry shooting using shotguns.

As regards the evidence of the impact of lead ammunition on human health and the environment the evidence is significant and continues to grow. 

For a summary see https://www.gwct.org.uk/policy/briefings/lead-ammunition/ 

When I joined BASC 17 years ago working on wildfowling leases and consents I recall many wildfowlers who refuted the evidence supporting a lead shot ban in wetlands that came into effect in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and some accused BASC and others of selling shooting down the river etc. So much time and resource was wasted on infighting.

Move forward almost a generation (!) and the very same evidence that justified a lead shot ban in wetlands all those years ago now seems widely accepted by wildfowlers and those from other shooting disciplines?

The evidence didn't change. The presence of lead shot continues to have a negative impact in wetlands. Acceptance of the evidence in the shooting community DID change. Whether many actually took the time to read the evidence on the negative impact of lead shot in wetlands then and now is a moot point though.

We are not unique in the UK as a shooting community dealing with change. 

See the following article "Lessons learned from 33 years of lead shot regulation in Denmark":
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30506141/ 

Look at this another way.

Most shooters believe in the evidence that shooting helps conservation and, for example, that controlled burning of heather helps protect peat stores.

The antis do not believe the evidence.

So who is right? Who has what agenda to back their views?

Those of us lashing out at BASC and other shooting and rural organisations might consider what actually is our own agenda on lead ammunition?

The difficulty we are all having with the idea of change to our use of lead ammunition is absolutely understandable.

Neither me, nor you, nor anyone else has a monopoly on how this is going to play out. 

But perhaps we can each try to read more and get more involved ahead of the changes ahead?

BASC and the CA have begun sustainable ammunition workshops.

For more insight on what is involved see:
https://basc.org.uk/try-bascs-sustainable-ammunition-days/

 

 

 

Thanks Conor very useful .

 

Edited by Terry2016
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Regardless of your personal beliefs on the toxicity of lead and the harm it causes, if there’s a public perception that it causes harm backed by science then as conservationists first, shooters second, we need to be seen to address this and take action to reduce the lead we leave in the environment.

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4 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

Regardless of your personal beliefs on the toxicity of lead and the harm it causes, if there’s a public perception that it causes harm backed by science then as conservationists first, shooters second, we need to be seen to address this and take action to reduce the lead we leave in the environment.

this...👍

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3 hours ago, holloway said:

I was thinking about that one ,maybe because a bullet wouldn’t be ingested by birds it’s not such an issue ,that’s the reason I have stopped using lead,I have also started using the cardboard shot cups in 12 ga  ,but also granted it may take a while for alternative caliber products to become available .

Lead rifle bullets leave trace elements of lead in deer, pigs, rabbits and whatever else is shot with rifles which finds it’s way into the human food chain. Nothing to do with ingestion by birds whatsoever. 
People really do need to think things through. 

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1 hour ago, Terry2016 said:

I suggest you shoot steel with a biodegradable wad when they are available or bismuth .

or get a new gun.. if you want to continue to shoot that is... of course.. 

seems not so?

IMG_7266.jpg

NO THANK YOU!

I have no intention, not now, not tomorrow, not ever of supporting with my money this "nice little earner" for a Spanish company (for that is what Eley is...it is a Spanish company).

I have preferred for the last thirty years to buy my cartridges from either Hull Cartridge Company or Lylvale. In fact I wouldn't use Eley cartridges if they were given to me free.

The more I read the more I smell a stink around the promoting of this miracle wad. And FWIW how safe is this wad?

Does it lose its integrity over the long term?

Have any trials been done over whether it degrades to a point that is unsafe in a loaded cartridge after one, two, three or four or five years? Kept under ideal conditions an/or in a less than ideal conditions?

Or in humid environments?

I have, as have no doubt many here, have shot five or ten year old cartridges with conventional fibre or plastic wads with no fear that the wad will have degraded or even dissolved. Even when the boxes those cartridges were in have become "fusty". So let us have trials done to see if there is a risk that this miracle wad degrades inside the cartridge before we accept it.

Edited by enfieldspares
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It's all very well going on about public perception BUT do u honestly think 90% of population really give a toss about lead shot???

Very few would ever eat game anyway.

 

Public perception is a problem but the problem is that shooting for fun is bad no ammount of BS about 'sustainable ammo will ever change that.

Lead is just an excuse to hit us with and considering even when Wet and r son went completely outside there remit to study lead in the human food chain and could find no real evidence for the LAG.

Basc have played right into there hands and shot ourselves in both feet while basc was stabbing us in back.

 

No offence Conor but if basc rolled u out and told me it was raining the 1st thing I'd do was look at the window.

Did u not also claim to have 'consulted' with the gun trsde??? Which they all denied

It's a sad day when after 35 odd years of membership u can't trust a word they say,, got more respect for r son now might not agree with wot they do but atleast they do it well.

 

Did the study say of the 1-3% of birds that may ingest shot was it enough to harm them???

Was there blood tested for lead levels?

There was a case for wildfowl for lead being banned but the same case just does not exist on dry land.

 

Enfield I would not be too quick to point the finger purely at big bag days, I know a few 30 bird DIY syndicates that can't get rid off birds either.

Guns just don't want them esp in feather

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7 hours ago, stuartyboy said:

Regardless of your personal beliefs on the toxicity of lead and the harm it causes, if there’s a public perception that it causes harm backed by science then as conservationists first, shooters second, we need to be seen to address this and take action to reduce the lead we leave in the environment.

Can’t argue with this.

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7 hours ago, Scully said:

Lead rifle bullets leave trace elements of lead in deer, pigs, rabbits and whatever else is shot with rifles which finds it’s way into the human food chain. Nothing to do with ingestion by birds whatsoever. 
People really do need to think things through. 

The way suggested over here in Sweden is that you remove more meat around the bullet passage. Works fine on deer, moose and such bigger spieces.

Harder with small game of course since a larger percentage of it would have to be removed and maybe not much left to consume but those are not really shot with rifles if not for pest control purposes over here.

As a general rule we are not allowed to hunt with air rifles so that is a non issue, I don't think many uses 22lr either besides for target practise so that is of small concern as well.

For the larger rifles I think copper bullits does the job well enough.

Our main problem over here would be the driven roe deer hunting with shotguns, the timber industry is not really keen to using steel shoots in the woodlands that may degrade the wood.

/Markus

Edited by Nuke
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7 hours ago, Scully said:

Lead rifle bullets leave trace elements of lead in deer, pigs, rabbits and whatever else is shot with rifles which finds it’s way into the human food chain. Nothing to do with ingestion by birds whatsoever. 
People really do need to think things through. 

Yes of course agreed as you point out the bigger picture is the toxicity of lead full stop, my post targets my own personal concerns over lead shot used by shotguns.and ensuring I don’t add to it  myself ,ingestion of bullets by birds was obviously a little tongue in cheek.

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