PC Andrew Harper

[Chriskent]

Terrible injustice, even the “lengthy” prison sentences are laughable !! To not call it murder is the icing on the cake !!!

[Rewulf]

On 01/08/2020 at 19:19, GingerCat said:

Its not that at all. Its simply resources. The resources need to deal with the type of offending far outstrip whats available for more serious offending and thats where it goes. Policing has been cut well into the bone and its going to get worse before (if) it gets any better.

Are you saying that resources are the ONLY reason the police seem very reluctant to tackle traveller crime ?
I think you and I both know that isnt true.

 

On 01/08/2020 at 20:16, Lloyd90 said:

That's complete nonsence. 

99% of these crimes are a complete resource drain with no possible chance of a conviction. Someone steals a vehicle or some equipment from a farm or house overnight, its gone by morning with no trace. 

What do you want the Police to do? Search every single house in the area? 

No Lloyd , but I would like then to pay a visit to every traveller camp in the area at the earliest opportunity.
But thats not going to happen, what YOU have to do is ask yourself why.

Is it really because they dont have the 'resources' ?
They could stick a wireless 4G trailcam overlooking the entrance to the site, then they wouldnt even have to send a car, oh but you cant do that can you ?
They could , you know , actually send a car onto the (usually) illegally occupied site, and ask a few questions, but they dont.
They dont do these things, because they dont want to end up in the unenviable position of actually finding stolen gear on site, and having the nightmare task of arresting and convicting the perps.
I have many many experiences of traveller crime from the inside and the out, and its a far bigger problem than you can possibly imagine.

If the will was their to tackle it, like there seems to be a will to tackle drivers going 5 mph over the speed limit, then a whole world of misery for tens of thousands of innocent people could be reduced.
Rural crime is massive, and the predatory people who commit it , live very safe lives , because they know the law hates having to tackle them.
Is it because of HR , or the fact they have minority status, is it simply too much trouble ?
How are scrotes like long and his accomplices allowed to operate with virtual impunity? Read the transcripts, they drive around all day looking for things to steal.
They believe , with some justification , that they are UNTOUCHABLE.

[JohnfromUK]

28 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Are you saying that resources are the ONLY reason the police seem very reluctant to tackle traveller crime

Resources and their priorities are an interesting one; I have personally had in the last 18 months two examples of them having ample resources;

The first was an accident on the motorway.  It was in a 'smart' motorway section and unfortunately there was a fatality, so I can understand that significant resources were sent - however in fact only two vehicles were involved, both cars, one almost completely undamaged (I believe it was only lightly struck in passing) and the occupants unhurt - the other very badly damaged rolled several times) with a single occupant who sadly died.  There was no visible damage to the infrastructure.  11 police cars (marked and unmarked) arrived along with fire and ambulance.  They were there for several hours with all traffic (including me a few rows back) stopped and no movement at all.

The second was an outbuilding fire very near me.  Saturday evening, not late, no one hurt and put out quickly by fire brigade.  On a very quiet road with plenty of 'off the highway' room for the fire engines (2).  6 police arrived in 3 cars - 2 did depart quite quickly once it was clear all was under control, but one with two young police staff remain until the fire brigade eventually went (after about 4 hours as they stayed to damp down etc.)

Now (admittedly anecdotally as I don't fortunately have personal experience) if a break in - or vandalism is reported - they are too busy to attend.  It does make you wonder who sets the priorities?  Crime against property seems to feature with a very low priority.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Here in Peterborough, you hardly see a Police car until there is an accident and 4, 5 or even 6 cars and vans suddenly arrive!

They must be sat in offices and when the call comes in every man and his dog heads out to the incident.

[GingerCat]

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Are you saying that resources are the ONLY reason the police seem very reluctant to tackle traveller crime ?
I think you and I both know that isnt true.

Sadly it is in the most part. 

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

No Lloyd , but I would like then to pay a visit to every traveller camp in the area at the earliest opportunity.
But thats not going to happen, what YOU have to do is ask yourself why.

And do what? You won't get a warrant and they won't talk. They may not let you on site and as you have no power to be there you'll leave or its trespass.  Why waste time better spent elsewhere. 

Is it really because they dont have the 'resources' ?
They could stick a wireless 4G trailcam overlooking the entrance to the site, then they wouldnt even have to send a car, oh but you cant do that can you 

Prevented by legislation that requires ipa/ripa authority or its illegal. Collateral intrusion pretty much rules it out. Google would tell you that. 

 

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

They could , you know , actually send a car onto the (usually) illegally occupied site, and ask a few questions, but they dont.

why they won't talk, what power do police have to demand answers? The answer is nil. not even under arrest. 

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

They dont do these things, because they dont want to end up in the unenviable position of actually finding stolen gear on site, and having the nightmare task of arresting and convicting the perps.

Poppycock

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I have many many experiences of traveller crime from the inside and the out, and its a far bigger problem than you can possibly imagine.

I don't disagree with that. 

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

If the will was their to tackle it, like there seems to be a will to tackle drivers going 5 mph over the speed limit, then a whole world of misery for tens of thousands of innocent people could be reduced.

I have to say no one really polices speeding other than the odd traffic officer, the odd pcso and the camera van. Its not that high a priority, if you have time to do that outside of a specific anti speeding drive then I'm jealous 

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

Rural crime is massive, and the predatory people who commit it , live very safe lives , because they know the law hates having to tackle them.

its a very difficult problem to tackle with conventional means and limited resources and an anti police community. 

 

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

Is it because of HR , or the fact they have minority status, is it simply too much trouble ?

 

Thats not the issue. 

 

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

How are scrotes like long and his accomplices allowed to operate with virtual impunity? Read the transcripts, they drive around all day looking for things to steal.
They believe , with some justification , that they are UNTOUCHABLE.

and to tackle it you propose?

[Harnser]

Despite all their lack of remorse ,take it from me they will be crying their eyes out asking for their mothers when they are banged up . I have seen it so many times before in the past .

harnser

[discobob]

18 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Here in Peterborough, you hardly see a Police car until there is an accident and 4, 5 or even 6 cars and vans suddenly arrive!

They must be sat in offices and when the call comes in every man and his dog heads out to the incident.

I see the very same happen in Mold. - no shortage for them - you see them all come flying out of the police station at various times of the day almost in convoy when there is an accident on the A55/A484.

Try and get police for anything else though! An example is the woman that was trying to get the police because she was in an abusive relationship - unfortunately she is now dead and has left 2 young kids. Then there was no end of police. This was only about 50 metres from our house.

I think that round here they are all in classes learning how to speak Welsh as that is higher on the priorities list than actually policing. 

Another example was a guy who was a drunk, with no license, who regularly drove. I was reporting him constantly to the police even as he was going out but they had no resources. This guy moved but then appeared in the paper a few weeks later - police looking for him after he had killed someone while in a car!

[Rewulf]

14 hours ago, GingerCat said:

Sadly it is in the most part. 

And do what? You won't get a warrant and they won't talk. They may not let you on site and as you have no power to be there you'll leave or its trespass.  Why waste time better spent elsewhere. 

But they can trespass at will, steal at will, flout every motoring law at will ?
UNTOUCHABLE.

 

why they won't talk, what power do police have to demand answers? The answer is nil. not even under arrest. 

I think you misunderstood this bit, by asking questions, you are also having a look round their site, you might notice a few tarpaulins covering various stolen plant and machinery.
Cutting equipment for breaking things up for export ?
I repeatedly reported a 'camp' next door to me , as they were cutting up nearly new Merc lorries , nearly every day for a week.
Guess what happened ? Nothing.
UNTOUCHABLE

Poppycock

its a very difficult problem to tackle with conventional means and limited resources and an anti police community. 
Hang on ,you said it was about resources ?
Now its about anti police sentiment from these criminals, and 'conventional' means not working.
I do know the police often use unconventional means to acquire the evidence needed to remove certain scumbags, and some of these particular 'folk' are absolutely prolific criminal scumbags, yet ....

Thats not the issue. 
The issue is , they feel UNTOUCHABLE.
So who is going to stop them except you and your colleagues ?

and to tackle it you propose?

I propose NOT doing nothing.
The more the problem is ignored , the more emboldened they become, a new generation of criminal thugs (like long) comes of age , hoping to out do the previous, via more violent and audacious crimes.
They dont care about money, their criminal reputation is the thing that gets discussed around the fire at night , or boasted of in the pub.
There needs to be a task force that understands the traveller mentality , there needs to be tracking of the worst tribes/clans, and move resources to compensate.
For too long , local authorities have just waited for them to move on and become someone else problem.
Pussyfooting around them results in them coming back to 'soft' areas repeatedly, or passing the gen on to other clans.
Each time it gets worse as they push the boundaries of what they think they can get away with.

Abandoning the law abiding people of this country to the predatory crimes of the travelling community is not acceptable.
 

[JohnfromUK]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Abandoning the law abiding people of this country to the predatory crimes of the travelling community is not acceptable.

/\ THIS

[JohnfromUK]

I read that the Attorney General is to review the sentences to see if they are 'too lenient'. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8592283/Attorney-General-review-jail-terms-handed-three-teenagers-killed-PC-Andrew-Harper.html

[GingerCat]

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

There needs to be a task force that understands the traveller mentality , there needs to be tracking of the worst tribes/clans, and move resources to compensate.
For too long , local authorities have just waited for them to move on and become someone else problem.
 

 

Good stuff, a national multi agency task force dedicated to a single issue, I'm sold. Sounds great. Wheres the resources coming from? 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, GingerCat said:

Good stuff, a national multi agency task force dedicated to a single issue, I'm sold. Sounds great. Wheres the resources coming from? 

The same place the resources come from that pay your wages.
The British taxpayer, otherwise known as , the victims of crime.

Or do we just let them deal with the losses , the injuries, the fear ?
Burying our heads in the sand and expecting the issue will simply go away on its own, is the reasoning of a mad man.
We can spend OUR money on all kinds of useless projects, how about we spend some on protecting the livelihoods of those that actually pay it ?

[GingerCat]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

The same place the resources come from that pay your wages.
The British taxpayer, otherwise known as , the victims of crime.

Or do we just let them deal with the losses , the injuries, the fear ?
Burying our heads in the sand and expecting the issue will simply go away on its own, is the reasoning of a mad man.
We can spend OUR money on all kinds of useless projects, how about we spend some on protecting the livelihoods of those that actually pay it ?

Right, so i said it was down to resources and you disagreed saying it wasn't  then propose a huge amount of resources to sort it. 

I actually like the idea, lots of problems could get sorted that way. We can stop aid to China and India and anyone else with space programmes to start. 

The problem is it is down to resources and how they are used, currently police have very little and do quite a lot with it, could do better on some things and could a lot more with more resources. As could the NHS and schools of course. 

[Dave-G]

Funding: Being an ex cabbie I picked up a fair few travellers - and often didn't get paid.

I've seen some with huge wads of cash in their pockets. I figure if they cannot prove where their money came from it should be seized.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I read that the Attorney General is to review the sentences to see if they are 'too lenient'. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8592283/Attorney-General-review-jail-terms-handed-three-teenagers-killed-PC-Andrew-Harper.html

I hope that’s true, and that he does consider it too lenient, and they get sentences which permanently wipe off those smirks. 

[Rewulf]

27 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Right, so i said it was down to resources and you disagreed saying it wasn't  then propose a huge amount of resources to sort it

No, I said it wasnt JUST down to resources,and you sort of agreed that it wasnt.

It's the same as anything , if the will isn't there to allocate money, then it simply wont get allocated.

Now we know we have the money , if anything covid has proved that, but for some reason , we dont have the will.

Do the roughest of estimates, and work out what it would take to set up a traveller crime task force, then tell me why it hasn't happened. 

 

[GingerCat]

Top of my head, 1000 strong (tiny really for a national unit) every year about 60m a year on wages and overtime. Then yiu need cars, radios, phones, computers, contracts to support them, buildings to be based in, sops  for working with others, etc etc. Say 300m a year. 

A lot of money spent in a single issue. Yes its tiny in comparison to say the NHS that probably spend close to that a month (or less) but there's lots of these issues and where does it stop once you start. 

 

I can add that the last one I visited with over 100 of my workmates took 3 weeks of planning and a fair amount of time to complete. All for rather minimal disruption and court disposals. There were 6 other sites similar in that Borough, with 31 other boroughs all the same. Robberies and burglaries were more of an issue. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by GingerCat

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, GingerCat said:

Top of my head, 1000 strong (tiny really for a national unit) every year about 60m a year on wages and overtime. Then yiu need cars, radios, phones, computers, contracts to support them, etc etc etc. Say 300m a year. 

I thought double that at least.

Do you think the public would have problem with that?  I dont.

The government might , but not because of the cost, more like the flak they would take from the usual human rights retards.

That's what I'm talking about.

[GingerCat]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

I thought double that at least.

Do you think the public would have problem with that?  I dont.

The government might , but not because of the cost, more like the flak they would take from the usual human rights retards.

That's what I'm talking about.

Depends on what ones you speak to i guess. 

[Rewulf]

I see that 2 of them arent happy with their sentences, and are appealing 

[dead eye alan]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

I see that 2 of them arent happy with their sentences, and are appealing 

I hope the sentence is increased on appeal as to lenient. ----------------------------- I won't hold my breath!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Here is a link;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-53838089

[Eyefor]

I'm sure they are appealing on the advice of their Lawyers. Legal aided?

Can we add the right of appropriate defence (ROAD?) to Harpers Law so we can reasonably defend our own property and lives?

[JohnfromUK]

34 minutes ago, Eyefor said:

I'm sure they are appealing on the advice of their Lawyers. Legal aided?

The purpose of the appeal will be to gain money for the lawyers.  If you have no visible assets, then the lawyer gets legal aid and the appellant has no cost.  If you already have a sentence, they are rarely increased on appeal, but occasionally decreased.  In this instance, reading the judges sentencing statement, it seems that he handed out sentences that were near maximum that was allowable within the guidelines, so an increase seems relatively unlikely.  Summary;

• Appellants have some chance of a reduction, little chance of an increase
• Lawyers have a dead cert of a good fee
• Taxpayer picks up all costs

It is called British Justice.

[matone]

On 04/08/2020 at 10:27, Rewulf said:

I propose NOT doing nothing.
The more the problem is ignored , the more emboldened they become, a new generation of criminal thugs (like long) comes of age , hoping to out do the previous, via more violent and audacious crimes.
They dont care about money, their criminal reputation is the thing that gets discussed around the fire at night , or boasted of in the pub.
There needs to be a task force that understands the traveller mentality , there needs to be tracking of the worst tribes/clans, and move resources to compensate.
For too long , local authorities have just waited for them to move on and become someone else problem.
Pussyfooting around them results in them coming back to 'soft' areas repeatedly, or passing the gen on to other clans.
Each time it gets worse as they push the boundaries of what they think they can get away with.

Abandoning the law abiding people of this country to the predatory crimes of the travelling community is not acceptable.
 

Well put,that is the situation that most see !