Taileron Posted August 21, 2020 Report Share Posted August 21, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwana Posted August 22, 2020 Report Share Posted August 22, 2020 22 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: The purpose of the appeal will be to gain money for the lawyers. If you have no visible assets, then the lawyer gets legal aid and the appellant has no cost. If you already have a sentence, they are rarely increased on appeal, but occasionally decreased. In this instance, reading the judges sentencing statement, it seems that he handed out sentences that were near maximum that was allowable within the guidelines, so an increase seems relatively unlikely. Summary; Appellants have some chance of a reduction, little chance of an increase Lawyers have a dead cert of a good fee Taxpayer picks up all costs It is called British Justice. Also Appeal Court judges do not like criticizing their lesser fellows who are often from the same background and social habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted August 22, 2020 Report Share Posted August 22, 2020 The country needs the Judge, who dealt with the Manchester bombing, to show the way to deal with scum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted August 22, 2020 Report Share Posted August 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, Gordon R said: The country needs the Judge, who dealt with the Manchester bombing, to show the way to deal with scum. Yes that would be a good start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 22, 2020 Report Share Posted August 22, 2020 This whole thing is a national disgrace of the first water. The fact that back in the day we had a hangman on standby reflects that capital punishment is not actually a deterrent. What it does do is to ensure that a no argument killer(s) will not repeat their crime. That'll do for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted August 22, 2020 Report Share Posted August 22, 2020 1 hour ago, wymberley said: This whole thing is a national disgrace of the first water. The fact that back in the day we had a hangman on standby reflects that capital punishment is not actually a deterrent. What it does do is to ensure that a no argument killer(s) will not repeat their crime. That'll do for me. Good post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-auto Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 I admit I am addicted to programmes like Police Interceptors, Traffic Cops and more recently that which deals with assaults on police officers.This despite my wife wanting to ban me from watching these, as the paltry sentences handed down sends my blood pressure through the roof. The programme about assaults on officers is particularly galling as the sentences are ridiculously lenient. The programme screened yesterday was particularly bad for the blood pressure. Following a routine traffic stop (no insurance) the driver attacked the officer with a machete, inflicting serious injury. The offender was charged with, amongst other things, attempted murder, of which he was found not guilty. How the devil is this possible? If you beat someone around the head with a machete, how can anyone say you do not intend to kill them? Admittedly, he was banged up for 16 years. Other assaults featured, including punching/kicking and biting officers resulted in ridiculously paltry fines, community service and victims surcharge. Most police officers laugh when you mention community service. I am told that most offenders simply do not bother to turn up and if they do, they spend most of the day smoking and drinking tea. If you strike a key worker in the execution of their duty, this should mean prison time - no ifs or buts! When will the judiciary actually start to support the police? An acquaintance of mine who was a magistrate (no longer) had a very liberal attitude until he was the victim of a street robbery. At this point he was all about taking a cricket bat to the feral gangs roaming the streets with robbery in mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 There is a petition out at present (Change.org) to try and get the sentencing tightened up for people who kill emergency workers. https://www.change.org/p/uk-government-anyone-guilty-of-killing-an-emergency-services-worker-to-be-jailed-for-life-2dff4a1f-82b8-410c-838f-dd201e5dfe8e?recruiter=false&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_abi&recruited_by_id=c811f900-e820-11ea-90fd-83a850d1626d&utm_content=fht-24172561-en-gb%3A0 It is obviously up to the individual whether you choose to sign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Heron Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 I think it says it all when the worst thing that can happen is free meals watch telly and lie in bed all day, personally along many others in this country they should have been removed from society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted August 28, 2020 Report Share Posted August 28, 2020 It seems the legal aid for the defendants cost taxpayers £465,000 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8671763/465-000-legal-aid-PC-Andrew-Harpers-killers-widow-Lissie-horrified-figure.html No doubt that will rise further with the sentencing reviews that have been requested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armsid Posted August 28, 2020 Report Share Posted August 28, 2020 As semi auto said it took a personal robbery to wake up a retired magistrate to the everyday life the citizens of the country endure. The judiciary should be from ordinary folk who know what real life problems occur and the aftermath of these deeds Many a time sentences do not reflect the victims mental and physical trauma and are mostly a liberal attitude towards the offender .If sharia law was in this country (i hope it never does) there would be more executions for murder hands chopped off for theft you would know who the crims were rant over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted September 3, 2020 Report Share Posted September 3, 2020 (edited) I see that the widow of PC Harper believes that those who cause the death of "emergency workers" should receive longer sentences than those that might cause the death of a member of the public who "does the right thing". So then why is the family of man also not entitled to see his killers receive longer sentences. Sir Robert Peel who founded Britain's police service saw no difference between the two saying that the police are the public and the public are the police. Yes. PC Harper's killers should be given much longer sentences but in giving such sentences to the killers of "emergency workers" should not the same be done across the board to ALL who kill members of the public who "does the right thing"? https://news.sky.com/story/teenagers-jailed-for-life-after-trying-to-decapitate-man-as-they-hacked-at-him-more-than-100-times-with-samurai-sword-12061980 Edited September 3, 2020 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted September 3, 2020 Report Share Posted September 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, enfieldspares said: should not the same be done across the board to ALL who are killed? I can see both sides on this question. People get killed for a variety of reasons - and can end up as manslaughter or murder. In some instances, manslaughter may be entirely unintended - such as caused by inattention - but at the other end of the scale, manslaughter may be used in preference to murder where there is strong reason to believe that pre-meditation was involved (i.e. murder), but it would be hard to prove that 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Where there is an incident which results in the emergency services getting involved - it may improve the outcome if the perpetrators see this as the change to a greater sentence. Personally I agree with what you are saying and I would like to see very tough sentences (e.g. life meaning life) where people are certainly 'deliberately killed' - even if it is not thought to be wise to use a murder charge due to concerns over the burden of proof. However I have reservations at the other end of the scale where the killing may have been much more like 'accidental'. I also believe that killing people who are legitimately carrying out their job should have the confidence that severe punishment awaits those who threaten their lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted September 3, 2020 Report Share Posted September 3, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: I also believe that killing people who are legitimately carrying out their job should have the confidence that severe punishment awaits those who threaten their lives. ^^^^^This^^^^^ Edited September 3, 2020 by Newbie to this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted September 3, 2020 Report Share Posted September 3, 2020 Blame the good book....... an eye for an eye .....then turn the other cheek...... Take a life, lose your life should be the mantra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted September 3, 2020 Report Share Posted September 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Walker570 said: Take a life, lose your life should be the mantra. It is nowhere near that simple; I hear an intruder in my house in the night, and I investigate armed with a stick. The intruder makes a sudden movement I interpret as threatening, hit him - and he dies as a result. Should I suffer the death penalty - or is it reasonable self defence? I'm driving, in town, and someone steps off the pavement - my car hits them and they are killed. Death penalty - or accident? My car skids on some spilled diesel - and someone is killed. Death penalty - or accident? Someone has a long drawn out terminal illness - and begs their carer to help them 'end things' which they do. It is reported - and the carer is accused of supplying/administering the excess sleeping pills/pain medication responsible. Should they suffer the death penalty? Just some examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted September 3, 2020 Report Share Posted September 3, 2020 51 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: It is nowhere near that simple; I hear an intruder in my house in the night, and I investigate armed with a stick. The intruder makes a sudden movement I interpret as threatening, hit him - and he dies as a result. Should I suffer the death penalty - or is it reasonable self defence If I catch an intruder in my house he will not have to make a sudden movement before I hit him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 3, 2020 Report Share Posted September 3, 2020 3 hours ago, enfieldspares said: https://news.sky.com/story/teenagers-jailed-for-life-after-trying-to-decapitate-man-as-they-hacked-at-him-more-than-100-times-with-samurai-sword-12061980 No doubt there will be plenty who will say poverty, and societal deficiencies played the larger part in this horrific murder. Its a familiar excuse , PC Harpers killers had 'learning disabilities' and an 'underprivileged' upbringing, causing them to be violent criminals with no regard for human life. 2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: It is nowhere near that simple; I hear an intruder in my house in the night, and I investigate armed with a stick. The intruder makes a sudden movement I interpret as threatening, hit him - and he dies as a result. Should I suffer the death penalty - or is it reasonable self defence? Of course its self defence, you didnt mean to kill them, what would you think their intentions are at that hour, do you want to check with them first ? I'm driving, in town, and someone steps off the pavement - my car hits them and they are killed. Death penalty - or accident? Accident, they are on the road, death was completely unintentional. My car skids on some spilled diesel - and someone is killed. Death penalty - or accident? Really ? Someone has a long drawn out terminal illness - and begs their carer to help them 'end things' which they do. It is reported - and the carer is accused of supplying/administering the excess sleeping pills/pain medication responsible. Should they suffer the death penalty? Doctors and carers do this ALL the time, its widely accepted in end of life situations. The Liverpool 'care' pathway is a classic example , still used in hospitals. Just some examples. Those are really bad examples John ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted September 3, 2020 Report Share Posted September 3, 2020 4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: It is nowhere near that simple; I hear an intruder in my house in the night, and I investigate armed with a stick. The intruder makes a sudden movement I interpret as threatening, hit him - and he dies as a result. Should I suffer the death penalty - or is it reasonable self defence? I'm driving, in town, and someone steps off the pavement - my car hits them and they are killed. Death penalty - or accident? My car skids on some spilled diesel - and someone is killed. Death penalty - or accident? Someone has a long drawn out terminal illness - and begs their carer to help them 'end things' which they do. It is reported - and the carer is accused of supplying/administering the excess sleeping pills/pain medication responsible. Should they suffer the death penalty? Just some examples. I id believe we where actually talking about criminal intent here. All of those incidents you mention are already covered by present law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted September 3, 2020 Report Share Posted September 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Walker570 said: I id believe we where actually talking about criminal intent here. All of those incidents you mention are already covered by present law. It still presents considerable difficulties. My understanding of the reason the killers weren't charged with murder, but faced the lesser charge of manslaughter was the difficulty in proving 'beyond reasonable doubt' they intended to kill. There was evidence they set out to steal (in this case a quad bike) - but they claimed they had no intent to kill/injure. I can see no real difference between manslaughter with criminal intent and murder - because if there is intent - then surely it is premeditated - and premeditated killing is murder. As I said - I entirely agree there should be a much harsher punishment - but it is hard to set into a rigourous legal framework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted September 3, 2020 Report Share Posted September 3, 2020 Then incarceration for life in plain concrete walled cells and no human contact at all. Doing anything which obviously puts someone elses life in danger to the extent they are killed deserves nothing less. I have a wuffly duffly liberal friend who says they may go mad....tough!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted September 3, 2020 Report Share Posted September 3, 2020 Perhaps we should give them the choice? You have been found guilty. Either a short sharp drop, or you may go slowly mad. You choose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratlegs Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 Just read judge gave the lenient sentence cos they have learning difficulties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Heron Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 17 hours ago, Ratlegs said: Just read judge gave the lenient sentence cos they have learning difficulties Well the longer term they have in prison the more time they will have to learn to read and write. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dead eye alan Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 2 hours ago, The Heron said: Well the longer term they have in prison the more time they will have to learn to read and write. Spot on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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