R.F.M luxus side by side 12G shotgun

[jords]

Hey guys, I mentioned in a previous topic that I am looking to purchase my first side by side shotgun... I’m gonna be buying one the weekend coming up..however I am torn between two choices.. as I am sure all of you are aware but side by side shotguns are usually quite expensive to buy brand new.. (in comparison to some O/U).. there is an argument until the cows come home about whether steel shot is suitable for old guns or not... (I don’t want to kick that argument off again).. however.. I have recently seen on A reputable arms dealers website a brand new side by side shotgun with beautiful scroll engraving (single trigger) for £1600 🧐 Just curious to know if anybody has purchased this particular gun as it looks quite appealing...?? I have emailed them directly & simply asked if this particular gun is proofed for steel shot.. they can 100% confirm it is.. just sounds like a good long term Investment.. (if lead shot gets banned eventually) 

the link to the site is below.. Along with my original choice..  if anybody has actually purchased this particular gun... I’d love to hear your thoughts on it.. 

Spanish? Or Italian? 

Cheers again! 
 

jords 

my original choice: an used AYA No.2 side by side. Ranging in price anywhere between £550-£-1200 (varying on condition & age) from a local gun shop.. 

Second choice:
R.F.M luxus side plate 12G side by side. 
https://www.sportsmanguncentre.co.uk/rfm-luxus-sideplate-12g-279163

[JohnfromUK]

As you have identified ...... very good value to be had second hand.  Negotiate as they need to be priced to sell.

Go out, try as many as you can of those that appeal and find one that fits you.  If you are thinking steel, at present, 2 1/2" chambers are a problem, but plenty of 'standard' steel for 2 3/4", but this (case length and availability (particularly of fibre/biodegradable wad)) is improving.

For me a s/s needs to be a fast handling  light relatively light gun - and I use light (1 ounce and under) loads.  I also dislike single triggers.  AyA (as a well known example) do many that meet my needs, and there is a huge choice out there.

[matone]

Stick to the used AYA No2 plan.

[Rob85]

To me you could walk blindly into a gun fit problem with buying brand new from an online source without being able to at least shoulder the gun. There is almost certainly going to be a vast handling difference between your AYA choice and this online one. The AYA is likely to be a traditional straight hand stock whereas the online gun is a pistol gripped stock, as far as looks goes I find a pistol grip on a side by side looks a bit gash. 

The AYA will likely be the sounder investment. 2 and3/4 chambers, will take standard steel shot just fine and If you decided to sell it a year or 2 down the line you could very well get back what you payed for it if you look after it. 

Unless that online gun has quite a bit of weight to it I certainly wouldn't want to be shooting a 3inch cartridge out of it.

[WalkedUp]

I would buy second hand personally to avoid losing money, especially if you do not get on with a side by side you have lost nothing. Conversely if you shoot well with it and want to upgrade in a few years, again you will not have lost money on it. 

[Old Boggy]

Lots of good advice above on the merits of buying a secondhand AYA No.2.

Plenty out there and as said, try as many as possible before making a decision.

Try to stick with 28 inch barrels. Nothing wrong with 26 inch (generally cheaper due to fashion trends) but not everyone can get on with shorter barrels.

Good luck with your purchase.

OB

[Dave at kelton]

All sound advice and I would go AYA no2 every time. Tried and tested Maker and model, plenty of choice, known for reliability and plenty of spares available anyway. It is also a side lock whereas your other choice is a side plated box lock judging by the advert.

[Guest cookoff013]

https://www.bywellshootingground.co.uk/gunroom/shotguns/rfm-luxus-boxlock-12-gauge-new.html

 

now, 

its got a 3" chamber, so should be proofed to a quite high standard anyway, i wouldnt hesitate to put through normal steel shells, unless the choking is silly (like my merkel/ xfull).

but for normal steel loads should be fine. dont forget these should be made to a standard to take american shells thats near or higher pressure levels than CIP. (ok, not by much. but they are.)

 

[dipper]

Keep away from single trigger on a s/s 

[enfieldspares]

Buy am AyA No2 or even a No4. You get twice the gun for, literally, half the price the thing that's been linked too.

[Old Boggy]

19 minutes ago, dipper said:

Keep away from single trigger on a s/s 

I think that`s sound advice for older English side by sides, but modern guns, I think, are no longer a problem. However, there is something very satisfying about using a double trigger side by side, which of course should ideally have a straight hand stock IMO.

Stick with a secondhand AYA No.2 and you cannot go far wrong.

OB

[dipper]

My side by sides a Westley Richards live pigeon gun .I took it to a gunmaker who builds shot guns also double big game rifles.He talked me out of  a single trigger on a side by side.Also have a mate who has a A Y A 56 with a single trigger and that’s gone wrong twice .It was not a cheap fix.

 

 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, with that new side plated box lock it does look nice but I would go with a AYA number 2 or even a best number 4 boxlockl

[jords]

i think the evidence is pretty clear.. the AYA No.2 it is then! i actually was not aware the R.F.M was a boxlox... also i was not too keen on the single trigger but was willing to over look it.. my first side by side must be a side lock! absolute sterling advice once again! thanks alot gents! i have been advised by many that the AYA no.2 is proofed anyway.. so it works for me.

ill be sure to post a picture of my purchase this saturday! 

all the best

jords

[wymberley]

It's called mission creep. This is when you offer up for consideration a choice of two and then everyone comes along with their idea .Me, guilty as charged.

From the two, it has to be the AyA. BUT. Bearing in mind the £s figure that you mentioned, it seems to me that things are on the move in the right direction. Although you shouldn't have to, adding a tad to your figures if possible, I'd also have a look at a Webley and Scott 700. After all, this is the type of English make that AyA copied.

You don't say where you are and whether or not you're viewing this purchase over the internet. If you still favour the RFM (bearing in mind I've always been an AyA shooter) despite what everyone is saying, I could nip up and view one for you if it helps.

EDIT: Just seen your last. If it has to be a sidelock please ignore this and if you want it to be reliable, then at the very  least treble your dosh.

[jords]

i apologise i am based in south west london, and i will be going to a gun shop saturday with a couple of snap caps for gun inspection ( ejectors etc) & shooting some imaginary live quarry on the shop floor with my intended purchase.. i totally agree with the gun fit issue in terms of buying on the internet. i am not the tallest chap for my age, (im 25) around 5ft 10. so im sure a slightly shorter stock & shorter barrels will be better for me in terms of manoeuvring.  i really appreciate the offer of viewing for me though! you're a gentleman! 

my grand father owns a cottage & lives in Wiltshire, around 20 minutes on from stone henge. he has alot of farmer friends that have been more than happy for me to shoot over their land. so that will be the intended use of my side by side on a weekend basis. my grand father has an O/U that he plans to use out in the field with me from time to time,  he had a shoulder operation so prefers the more forgiving recoil guns & lighter shells. i will be honest i havent really got a figure in mind in terms of a budget, i was just stating what i have seen them advertised for on a average basis. if i see something on the day that is slightly more, but worth the money, i will negotiate the best price that keeps me & the arms dealer satisfied. no low balling. i have heard good things about webley & scott! so i will be sure to have an open mind in terms of brand when looking! (after all.. you all know more than me) i just had a moment of thinking that buying a new gun would offer more of a life span, hopefully less issues in the near future & a buy it once, buy it right kind of attitude. i am now educated that is is not the case & quality of the gun maker ( a known brand) is still the best option. hope this gives more of an insight. 

 

all the best & thanks again! 

 

jords

34 minutes ago, wymberley said:

It's called mission creep. This is when you offer up for consideration a choice of two and then everyone comes along with their idea .Me, guilty as charged.

From the two, it has to be the AyA. BUT. Bearing in mind the £s figure that you mentioned, it seems to me that things are on the move in the right direction. Although you shouldn't have to, adding a tad to your figures if possible, I'd also have a look at a Webley and Scott 700. After all, this is the type of English make that AyA copied.

You don't say where you are and whether or not you're viewing this purchase over the internet. If you still favour the RFM (bearing in mind I've always been an AyA shooter) despite what everyone is saying, I could nip up and view one for you if it helps.

EDIT: Just seen your last. If it has to be a sidelock please ignore this and if you want it to be reliable, then at the very  least treble your dosh.

 

[enfieldspares]

From a gunmaker's point of view the AyA No4 is far superior in technical construction to the Webley 700 as it has chopper lump barrels, uses a proper replaceable cross-pin and has a stronger front loop than does the Webley. AyA copied a Westley Richards boxlock BTW not a Webley 700....as the Webley 700 AFAIK didn't then exist. OTOH the Webley had (as they now mostly worn off) nicer traditional colour case hardening colours unlike the cyanide hardened AyA guns. Both however have traditional stocks that can be bent through the hand for drop and cast unlike, I'd guess, the RFM Luxus which likely uses a stock bolt through a hole in the rear of the butt. And, again, bot the AyA and the Webley have better executed for-ends. That on the RFM Luxus just looks "cobby" rather than throroughbred. 

[jords]

5 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

From a gunmaker's point of view the AyA No4 is far superior in technical construction to the Webley 700 as it has chopper lump barrels, uses a proper replaceable cross-pin and has a stronger front loop than does the Webley. AyA copied a Westley Richards boxlock BTW not a Webley 700....as the Webley 700 AFAIK didn't then exist. OTOH the Webley had (as they now mostly worn off) nicer traditional colour case hardening colours unlike the cyanide hardened AyA guns. Both however have traditional stocks that can be bent through the hand for drop and cast unlike, I'd guess, the RFM Luxus which likely uses a stock bolt through a hole in the rear of the butt. And, again, bot the AyA and the Webley have better executed for-ends. That on the RFM Luxus just looks "cobby" rather than throroughbred. 

acknowledged & taken on board.. much appreciated!

[enfieldspares]

When testing ejectors do remember, I am sure you know it already, the old gunmakers' trick to test them.

Load both, fire the right trigger, break the gun as normal. Load both, fire the left trigger break the gun as normal. This exposes any fault of the one ejector dragging the other.

Now load gun, fire both triggers and holding the gun through the wrist with the left hand use the now free right hand to tap the top of the barrels about halfway down their length to tap them open.

You should hear a click as they set and then tap gently and if correctly regulated they will both fire at the same exact moment and eject the snap caps the same exact distance and as if the two were tied together side by side. Also you'll see if there is any fault of a fired case striking or catching the face of the breech ans they are firing too early.

This procedure exposes any fault that is always missed if the buyer simply fires both triggers and then breaks the gun in the normal was he or she would if using it on a stand whilst in the heat of a drive.

Then finally, yes, do load both, fire both and break as you would in the field. Then repeat once more to see if that last test has caused any problems with opening and ejecting a single fired cartridge. 

Oh...one last thing...a new set of ejectors if bespoke made will now cost around £350!

Edited August 11, 2020 by enfieldspares

[jords]

i actually didnt know that! i have screen shotted your comment & will deffo put that into practise on the shop floor. honestly.. thankyou so much! 

3 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

When testing ejectors do remember, I am sure you know it already, the old gunmakers' trick to test them.

Load both, fire the right trigger, break the gun as normal. Load both, fire the left trigger break the gun as normal. This exposes any fault of the one ejector dragging the other.

Now load gun, fire both triggers and holding the gun through the wrist with the left hand use the now free right hand to tap the top of the barrels about halfway down their lingth to tap them open. You should hear a click as they set and then tap gently and if correctly regulated they will both fire at the same exact moment and eject the snap caps the same exact distance and as if the two were tied together side by side. This procedure exposes any fault that is always missed if the buyer simply fires both triggers and then breaks the gun in the normal was he or she would if using it on a stand whilst in the heat of a drive.

 

[enfieldspares]

Yes. I've added a final sentence. There's a well known You Tube Pathe video of a London maker in the 1950s where if you slow the video down you'll see that their sidelock is NOT regulated correctly!

https://youtu.be/1E4jwmPj6hg

Go to about 3.03 in the video and play at normal speed. All OK? No! Now rewind and then set it to play at 0.25 speed from the settings menu. Oh dear! They aren't regulated at all! But you do get to see one of the now rare British over and under gun that isn't a Boss nor a Woodward as the maker shown is Grant and Lang.

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by enfieldspares

[wymberley]

9 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

From a gunmaker's point of view the AyA No4 is far superior in technical construction to the Webley 700 as it has chopper lump barrels, uses a proper replaceable cross-pin and has a stronger front loop than does the Webley. AyA copied a Westley Richards boxlock BTW not a Webley 700....as the Webley 700 AFAIK didn't then exist. OTOH the Webley had (as they now mostly worn off) nicer traditional colour case hardening colours unlike the cyanide hardened AyA guns. Both however have traditional stocks that can be bent through the hand for drop and cast unlike, I'd guess, the RFM Luxus which likely uses a stock bolt through a hole in the rear of the butt. And, again, bot the AyA and the Webley have better executed for-ends. That on the RFM Luxus just looks "cobby" rather than throroughbred. 

Can't argue with any of that except to say that "type of" was ignored.

13 minutes ago, jords said:

i apologise i am based in south west london, and i will be going to a gun shop saturday with a couple of snap caps for gun inspection ( ejectors etc) & shooting some imaginary live quarry on the shop floor with my intended purchase.. i totally agree with the gun fit issue in terms of buying on the internet. i am not the tallest chap for my age, (im 25) around 5ft 10. so im sure a slightly shorter stock & shorter barrels will be better for me in terms of manoeuvring.  i really appreciate the offer of viewing for me though! you're a gentleman! 

my grand father owns a cottage & lives in Wiltshire, around 20 minutes on from stone henge. he has alot of farmer friends that have been more than happy for me to shoot over their land. so that will be the intended use of my side by side on a weekend basis. my grand father has an O/U that he plans to use out in the field with me from time to time,  he had a shoulder operation so prefers the more forgiving recoil guns & lighter shells. i will be honest i havent really got a figure in mind in terms of a budget, i was just stating what i have seen them advertised for on a average basis. if i see something on the day that is slightly more, but worth the money, i will negotiate the best price that keeps me & the arms dealer satisfied. no low balling. i have heard good things about webley & scott! so i will be sure to have an open mind in terms of brand when looking! (after all.. you all know more than me) i just had a moment of thinking that buying a new gun would offer more of a life span, hopefully less issues in the near future & a buy it once, buy it right kind of attitude. i am now educated that is is not the case & quality of the gun maker ( a known brand) is still the best option. hope this gives more of an insight. 

 

all the best & thanks again! 

 

jords

 

Scrounge a day off and nip down and surprise your grandad. Take him out for the day to Salisbury. While you're there, you could both pop into Greenfields.

[jords]

6 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Can't argue with any of that except to say that "type of" was ignored.

Scrounge a day off and nip down and surprise your grandad. Take him out for the day to Salisbury. While you're there, you could both pop into Greenfields.

haha, i am self employed, i trade the forex markets for a living. so i am free 7 days a week. i may just do that! i appreciate the insights, its a dodgy dealers paradise for the uneducated when it comes to buying a first ''type of gun'' i am sure i will be purchasing a gem based on the info i have retrieved on here! thankyou for your time & input gents! 

all the best

jords 

 

[enfieldspares]

9 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Can't argue with any of that except to say that "type of" was ignored.

Scrounge a day off and nip down and surprise your grandad. Take him out for the day to Salisbury. While you're there, you could both pop into Greenfields.

Yes. Sorry. Greenfields will have an excellent selection (although at a price) and that's top rate advice to pay them a visit. They are good people. I bought a stalking rifle off them some years ago.

[jords]

2 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Yes. Sorry. Greenfields will have an excellent selection (although at a price) and that's top rate advice to pay them a visit. They are good people. I bought a stalking rifle off them some years ago.

greenfields it is then!