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What I'm saying is the pointer can do the same job as a lab or spaniel but sometimes better.

Well as you know, and you seem to know everything. Mine are HPR'S, But that is matter less , as I said speak to GMM243, he has had the breed the gentleman is asking about, and obviously he has had , although hard mouthed, for reason's unknown to him, he has had a as you put it STRAIGHT pointer retrieving. Oh and that's a pic of a aSTRAIGHT pointer errrrrrrrrrr Retrieving, I think????????

Pointer Dog Breed Information

Oh and before I get wrong for any comments, I'm leaving this thread as of. Good luck with your pointer.

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35 minutes ago, ninjaferret said:

What I'm saying is the pointer can do the same job as a lab or spaniel but sometimes better.

Well as you know, and you seem to know everything. Mine are HPR'S, But that is matter less , as I said speak to GMM243, he has had the breed the gentleman is asking about, and obviously he has had , although hard mouthed, for reason's unknown to him, he has had a as you put it STRAIGHT pointer retrieving. Oh and that's a pic of a aSTRAIGHT pointer errrrrrrrrrr Retrieving, I think????????

Pointer Dog Breed Information

Oh and before I get wrong for any comments, I'm leaving this thread as of. Good luck with your pointer.

Retrieve yep. Same job as a spaniel? Hunting through hedges?    Err no. 

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32 minutes ago, ninjaferret said:

What I'm saying is the pointer can do the same job as a lab or spaniel but sometimes better.

Well as you know, and you seem to know everything. Mine are HPR'S, But that is matter less , as I said speak to GMM243, he has had the breed the gentleman is asking about, and obviously he has had , although hard mouthed, for reason's unknown to him, he has had a as you put it STRAIGHT pointer retrieving. Oh and that's a pic of a aSTRAIGHT pointer errrrrrrrrrr Retrieving, I think????????

Pointer Dog Breed Information

Oh and before I get wrong for any comments, I'm leaving this thread as of. Good luck with your pointer.

 

Nice pic... what’s that saying? One swallow doesn’t make a summer... 


As I said ... looking forward to you buying a straight English pointer or several and taking them out as a picking up team as you claim it’s easy I expect you’ll do a better job than the retrievers ... 

 

If anyone is wondering ... Ninjaferret likes to follow me around the forum and comment on any post or thread I write on, as he has a chip on his shoulder because I said his dogs were overpriced when he wanted someone like £2,500 a pup. 
 

Careful Ninjaferret or you’ll get told off by the moderators again. 

 

Funny how recently lots of people are trying to get that kind of money and being called greedy money grabbing breeders ... but there we go 👍🏻

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Any dog when sent for a retrieve can for whatever reason and regardless how good it is can and sometimes not find it but another dog sent for it and finds it that dosnt make the second dog better than the first there could be numerous reasons why it was missed in the first instance. 

The OP has still not said what he will be using the dog for if he did he may well get a more balanced reply, if one type of dog did it all there would be no need for all the other breeds. 

Edited by B725
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39 minutes ago, B725 said:

Any dog when sent for a retrieve can for whatever reason and regardless how good it is can and sometimes not find it but another dog sent for it and finds it that dosnt make the second dog better than the first there could be numerous reasons why it was missed in the first instance. 

The OP has still not said what he will be using the dog for if he did he may well get a more balanced reply, if one type of dog did it all there would be no need for all the other breeds. 

Bang on. 
 

An English Pointer might be perfect for what the OP needs and wants. 
 

Hence better if he says then it’s easier to get the info he wants to make a decision.

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5 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Nice pic... what’s that saying? One swallow doesn’t make a summer... 


As I said ... looking forward to you buying a straight English pointer or several and taking them out as a picking up team as you claim it’s easy I expect you’ll do a better job than the retrievers ... 

 

If anyone is wondering ... Ninjaferret likes to follow me around the forum and comment on any post or thread I write on, as he has a chip on his shoulder because I said his dogs were overpriced when he wanted someone like £2,500 a pup. 
 

Careful Ninjaferret or you’ll get told off by the moderators again. 

 

Funny how recently lots of people are trying to get that kind of money and being called greedy money grabbing breeders ... but there we go 👍🏻

Lloyd

First, I won't be buying any English pointers.

Second, I never said it was easy.

Third, I said with right training they could be as good and sometimes better than lab's or other, on occasion.

Fourth, I have better thing's to do than follow someone like you.

Fifth, If you think I have a chip, please, please be my guest............

Sixth, Get you're facts RIGHT. My pup's were £1200 last year, anyone who I let buy one will confirm they were a bargain at that price, and funnily enough the only one I had to go and get back because the man talked the talk, but didn't walk the walk was from Bristol.

Seventh, I have not been told off by moderators.

Eight, Do not even try to imply that in you're words I'm a money grabbing breeder. I let my bitch have one litter of pup's because I wanted a pup from her. No other reason.

So take it from this Lloyd. Get you're facts right first.

OH AND JUST FOR THE RECORD 7 OF MY PUP'S WERE BOUGHT BY LAD'S ON MY SHOOT. I think that speaks for itself, they've all seen the mother working.

 

Edited by ninjaferret
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Cracking dog ninja ferret my cousin has one and uses on our shoot. My dad used to breed britanny spaniels many years ago another hpr. Looking at what dogs go for now I would say pups are well priced 

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40 minutes ago, bumpy22 said:

Cracking dog ninja ferret my cousin has one and uses on our shoot. My dad used to breed britanny spaniels many years ago another hpr. Looking at what dogs go for now I would say pups are well priced 

Thank you.

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Cut it out fellas, it gets very boring when y'alll start and get bitchy. 

Back to the subject matter. It would be nice to hear EXACTLY what the guy wants an English pointer for.  I drive a Land Rover 90 not a Mini Cooper because it does what I expect of it and the same goes for dogs, end of story.

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1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Cut it out fellas, it gets very boring when y'alll start and get bitchy. 

Back to the subject matter. It would be nice to hear EXACTLY what the guy wants an English pointer for.  I drive a Land Rover 90 not a Mini Cooper because it does what I expect of it and the same goes for dogs, end of story.

Not exactly. But I made my point.

Now end of story.

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Exactly above.

 

All dogs have strengths and weaknesses althou some breeds have more than others, generally because there more specialised.?

But not always look at ur retriever breeds all very rare now ( flat, Goldie and curly) which used to be the mainstay of UK dogs all very rare now as labs simply better and cleverer and mature far quickier.

 

Anyone that thinks an EP can do exactly the same as a lab or spaniel is off there meds.

Just as anyone who thinks a lab or spaniel could work a grouse moor the way an EP will is equally off there meds.

2 very distinct types of dogs

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On 23/08/2020 at 22:48, scotslad said:

Exactly above.

 

All dogs have strengths and weaknesses althou some breeds have more than others, generally because there more specialised.?

But not always look at ur retriever breeds all very rare now ( flat, Goldie and curly) which used to be the mainstay of UK dogs all very rare now as labs simply better and cleverer and mature far quickier.

 

Anyone that thinks an EP can do exactly the same as a lab or spaniel is off there meds.

Just as anyone who thinks a lab or spaniel could work a grouse moor the way an EP will is equally off there meds.

2 very distinct types of dogs


Exactly mate 👍🏻
 

As I said I would, I have Guy Wallace’s book in front of me now,

The chapter title is “Horses for Courses” and the quote was: 

 

“... there is a bewildering array of gundog breeds from which to choose. I am forever coming across people who have bought a completely unsuitable breed of dog for their purpose because they have not done their homework, have been badly advised by someone who either has pups to get rid of or is ‘kennel blind’ about his or her own particular breed, or they have had preconceived ideas based on nothing from which they will not shift. I’m every case the poor dog comes off second best and the owner is disillusioned.” 
 

 

I think his point is, it’s a hell of a lot easier to buy a dog well suited to the work you have for it, than to buy a random breed that you like the look of and is completely unsuited to you. 

Edited by Lloyd90
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Just now, B725 said:

Never a truer word been written. 


I just cracked up ... as just a few lines down the page it says ... 

 

“Whenever one sticks one’s head over the parapet someone is always going to shoot at you and everyone is going to jump up and down with ‘one of such-and-such a breed did such-and-such a job far better than one of a so-&-so breed’. I would argue but but swallow ...” 

 

🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

It’ looks like Guy’s prediction has come true here on this very thread. 

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My very best working dog was a chocolate coloured labrador... Muffin .... and everyone said he would be useless, chocolates always where, one woman 'expert' said he would never be able to jump as his legs where all wrong, etc etc etc.  Muffin turned out to be the best game finder and retriever out of the 14 dogs I have had in my life and he jumped five bar gates just for the fun of it and would jump over just infront of someone who was astride the gate climbing over, I'm sure on purpose because he did it so often.  He would swim just for the love of it as well and would dive after a diver and come up with it and he was a handsom beast as well ..... BUT he couldn't point to save his life.  As said horses for courses.  BUT.....  there are far more pleasures in owning a dog than it just being a machine.

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1 hour ago, London Best said:

If you want to see a good video of Guy calling a spade a bloody shovel google:      Guy Wallace, The End Of The Game. 
If you don’t know him, it will open some eyes!


I’ve watched it, several times. 
 

He is a relic in some regards however one hell of a character. 

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1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

My very best working dog was a chocolate coloured labrador... Muffin .... and everyone said he would be useless, chocolates always where, one woman 'expert' said he would never be able to jump as his legs where all wrong, etc etc etc.  Muffin turned out to be the best game finder and retriever out of the 14 dogs I have had in my life and he jumped five bar gates just for the fun of it and would jump over just infront of someone who was astride the gate climbing over, I'm sure on purpose because he did it so often.  He would swim just for the love of it as well and would dive after a diver and come up with it and he was a handsom beast as well ..... BUT he couldn't point to save his life.  As said horses for courses.  BUT.....  there are far more pleasures in owning a dog than it just being a machine.


He sounds like a good dog to have around mate, unless you were the one climbing the gate 👍🏻🤣... 

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Was it not guy that wrote the versatile gundog? ( If not it was Michael brander) 1 off the first UK books on hprs.

 

Kennel blindness is a good description which u do see a lot, and if I'm honest probably more so from 'hobby' hpr owners. 

Think there dog/breed really can do anything as well as a breed specifically bred for the job for hundreds of years.

I've seen a lot off hprs and it's rare to see 1 as good as an average lab at normal shoot work, and those trainers deserve a huge ammount of credit for getting the dog to that standard.

 

If u consider a Ftch hpr to be the pinnacle off working hpr dog training, even the very best when it comes to pure retrieving struggle to keep up with an average lab for handling..

But equally a lab is completely rubbish at pointing.

 

I mind I read an interview with Ian Openshaw in shooting gazettee a few years ago forget the actua exactl words now

But something like ' critise a man's wife and it's a joke, critise his dog and ur the biggest **** in the world'

and that's folk paying him for his expert opinion not so happy when not all complimentary.

Althou ironically u'll probably learn far more from the likes off Opie critising ur dog than praising it.

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1 hour ago, scotslad said:

Was it not guy that wrote the versatile gundog? ( If not it was Michael brander) 1 off the first UK books on hprs.

 

Kennel blindness is a good description which u do see a lot, and if I'm honest probably more so from 'hobby' hpr owners. 

Think there dog/breed really can do anything as well as a breed specifically bred for the job for hundreds of years.

I've seen a lot off hprs and it's rare to see 1 as good as an average lab at normal shoot work, and those trainers deserve a huge ammount of credit for getting the dog to that standard.

 

If u consider a Ftch hpr to be the pinnacle off working hpr dog training, even the very best when it comes to pure retrieving struggle to keep up with an average lab for handling..

But equally a lab is completely rubbish at pointing.

 

I mind I read an interview with Ian Openshaw in shooting gazettee a few years ago forget the actua exactl words now

But something like ' critise a man's wife and it's a joke, critise his dog and ur the biggest **** in the world'

and that's folk paying him for his expert opinion not so happy when not all complimentary.

Althou ironically u'll probably learn far more from the likes off Opie critising ur dog than praising it.


 

Yea that was Guy Wallace ... I just managed to pick up a copy yesterday as I fancied reading about the pointers and HPR’s. 
 

I fancied one a few years ago but have stuck to English springers recently. Sadly had to put my 11 year old Lab to sleep a few weeks back.

The HPR’s versatility has to be admired. The thought of a dog you can take rough shooting one day, our wildfowling the next, and then deer stalking the day after. I don’t think a spaniel would be able to match that, although I do reckon you could get a Lab that could pull it off, and would likely be easier to live with and for an amateur to train. 
 

There’s not many labs or spaniels that could turn their hand at such an array of tasks however. 
 

Kennel blindness is a sad thing. Lots of people get caught up on the romance of their dogs. Breeding you see it a lot... people obsessed to “carry on their lines” of a dog that’s mediocre at best. My first two gundogs were birches that I could have bred but didn’t as I never thought I’d worked them hard enough to sufficiently prove their worth of breeding. 
 

 

 

By the way. Guy gave a very positive account of the English Pointer in the book I quoted earlier on, however he did say they are best on open moorland or low land stubbles running big areas of land, and worked alongside another dog that should be used to pickup shot game. 

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I have not really come across a lot of GSP’s in my 60 years in the shooting field, but my experiences have, on the whole, not been positive. I can remember one about 30 years ago that was a useful dog. Most of the others I have seen “working” have either given tongue whilst hunting or been very hard mouthed, or both. 

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Taken on board all your comments on pointers.

I have had German Wire Hairs for well over 20 years and still have, labs and springer's over 30 years and still have, and my first terrier when I was 11, and still have one now.

Just one question to you all. Have any of you trained and worked a pointer ?

With so much knowledge and advice your all offering I can guess the answer...................

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10 minutes ago, ninjaferret said:

Taken on board all your comments on pointers.

I have had German Wire Hairs for well over 20 years and still have, labs and springer's over 30 years and still have, and my first terrier when I was 11, and still have one now.

Just one question to you all. Have any of you trained and worked a pointer ?

With so much knowledge and advice your all offering I can guess the answer...................


You haven’t trained or worked an English pointer either have you Ninjaferrer? 
 

Let’s leave any past disagreements behind please, as it ruins good conversation. 
 

You’ve got HPR’s, not pointers. It’s a completely different class isn’t it? You seem to be coming from the perspective of HPR’s from my reading? Apologies if I am incorrect... 
 

Ive also never owned a Land Rover Freelander, but I know if I wanted a car to take on a speed race I wouldn’t get one, because it’s blindingly obvious it’s not the tool for the job. 
 

On-top of that every single gundog trainer and book emphasises the point of getting the dog to suit the type of work you want it to do as this makes things a whole lot easier. However people can crack on with whatever breed they want.
 

No one has bashed pointers (English) in this thread. Just simply pointed out they are a very specialist dog and unlikely to be used for what the vast majority of people want a gundog for. For some people they will be exactly what they want and need and will be amazing. 
 

I would love to see them hunted with a bird of prey, I think that would be a real sight to behold. 

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No Loyd I haven't worked or owned an English Pointer, but if you look closely, that wasn't my question. 

The Clue is in the name Lloyd german wirehaired POINTER .

And if you look closely you'll see that an English Pointer is classed as HPR.

And the land rover thing was nearly funny when Walker570 cracked it earlier, but just go's to show...............

And yes pointers may not be suitable for the vast majority as you put it, but the minority may want to put time into their dog day in day out and have a fantastic all round dog at the end of it.

And to watch a pointer doing it's work regardless of what it is , is a sight to behold. Especially if you have been the one capable of training it and maintaining the standard.

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