Webley mod700, 116111

[snarepeg]

Have been offered one in nice unabused condition, blueing good, crisp locking and sound stock.

2.5 chambers and proofed for 32 gram.

number 116111, any idea on age.?

[Konor]

Serial number 116000 is recorded as being assigned to the year 1939 and 116486 was recorded in 1940. After world war 2 numbering resumed at 116487. So your gun was probably made some time in 1939.

[London Best]

I don’t believe Webley actually made the mod. 700 until post WW2. 
 

edit to say, maybe you have been sold a mod. 500. Most folks, definitely including most dealers, wouldn’t know the difference.

Edited August 31, 2020 by London Best

[Konor]

22 minutes ago, London Best said:

I don’t believe Webley actually made the mod. 700 until post WW2. 
 

edit to say, maybe you have been sold a mod. 500. Most folks, definitely including most dealers, wouldn’t know the difference.

You are correct LB production of the 700 started in 1947. The model 300 was produced from1922 to 1939, the  model 400 was produced from 1900 to 1946 available in 12,14,16 20,28,32 and .410 in three grades.The model 500 from1925 to 1946 and the model 600 from1927 to 1946. 
The model 500 also called the Proprietary was a light game gun made only in grade 2  in 12 and 16 bore few guns of of this model were made during its production run. The model 500 was a well engraved gun with drop points on the stock.

The model 300 was a plain gun with a Greener cross bolt though the model 300 A which replaced the standard version in 1939 had more engraving than the model 300 ,its production ceased in 1946.

The model 600 was introduced in 1927 as a non ejector in plain quality only it had no Greener cross bolt. A number of versions ,including the 601,602,603 and 604 were added to the range between 1937 and 1939 before production ended in 1946.

The model 700 introduced in 1947 was initially only made in 12 and 16 bore. At the urging ofAmerican dealers 20 bore guns were introduced in 1957, the 28 bore was added in 1966. One .410 model 700 was made in 1967.

 

 

[snarepeg]

Well thank you gentlemen for that bit of education, so it's not a 700 as was informed by seller.

but it's a lovely light weight, nice handling and works a treat.

so it's 80 years old, so goes well with my 85.

its nicer and lighter than my miroku so it's going into my cabinet.👍🇬🇧😊

[London Best]

Thanks  Konor. I have what I am sure is a mod. 600 named Army & Navy CSL. in .410. It has drop points and some engraving so may possibly be a 601/2/3/4 variant. It is not the original stock but I had the original style copied when I had to have a restock in 1981.

[Konor]

You’re welcome LB I will have a look through my double gun journals at the Webley articles and see if I can turn up any information on the 601/602/603/604 guns and let you know what I find.

Your .410 sounds like a cherished possession

Edited August 31, 2020 by Konor
Addition

[London Best]

2 minutes ago, Konor said:

You’re welcome LB I will have a look through my double gun journals at the Webley articles and see if I can turn up any information on the 601/602/603/604 guns and let you know what I find

That would be much appreciated sir,  Thank you.

[Konor]

I looked through the first 17 volumes of Double Gun Journal and so far not much further information other than “the Model 500 was more highly respected than the model 700 by English gunmakers” according to one writer. There was frequent mention of Army and Navy  W and R patented sidelocks sourced from Webley and Scott but no articles so far on the Webley and Scott boxlock range.I still have to look through another 13 volumes 4 magazines per volume so might yet turn up something. I’m sure Gunman will turn up at some point and be able to clarify some detail about Webley’s boxlock range from hands on personal experience.

[London Best]

Thank you Konor. I also have a ‘Rodgers’ action side lock named Armstrong, Newcastle. Likely made by Webley of course.

[matone]

The Vintage Gun Journal has done an article or two on Webleys I believe.Always worth a read!

[222mark]

On 31/08/2020 at 11:18, Konor said:

You are correct LB production of the 700 started in 1947. The model 300 was produced from1922 to 1939, the  model 400 was produced from 1900 to 1946 available in 12,14,16 20,28,32 and .410 in three grades.The model 500 from1925 to 1946 and the model 600 from1927 to 1946. 
The model 500 also called the Proprietary was a light game gun made only in grade 2  in 12 and 16 bore few guns of of this model were made during its production run. The model 500 was a well engraved gun with drop points on the stock.

The model 300 was a plain gun with a Greener cross bolt though the model 300 A which replaced the standard version in 1939 had more engraving than the model 300 ,its production ceased in 1946.

The model 600 was introduced in 1927 as a non ejector in plain quality only it had no Greener cross bolt. A number of versions ,including the 601,602,603 and 604 were added to the range between 1937 and 1939 before production ended in 1946.

The model 700 introduced in 1947 was initially only made in 12 and 16 bore. At the urging ofAmerican dealers 20 bore guns were introduced in 1957, the 28 bore was added in 1966. One .410 model 700 was made in 1967.

 

 

 

[222mark]

On 31/08/2020 at 11:18, Konor said:

You are correct LB production of the 700 started in 1947. The model 300 was produced from1922 to 1939, the  model 400 was produced from 1900 to 1946 available in 12,14,16 20,28,32 and .410 in three grades.The model 500 from1925 to 1946 and the model 600 from1927 to 1946. 
The model 500 also called the Proprietary was a light game gun made only in grade 2  in 12 and 16 bore few guns of of this model were made during its production run. The model 500 was a well engraved gun with drop points on the stock.

The model 300 was a plain gun with a Greener cross bolt though the model 300 A which replaced the standard version in 1939 had more engraving than the model 300 ,its production ceased in 1946.

The model 600 was introduced in 1927 as a non ejector in plain quality only it had no Greener cross bolt. A number of versions ,including the 601,602,603 and 604 were added to the range between 1937 and 1939 before production ended in 1946.

The model 700 introduced in 1947 was initially only made in 12 and 16 bore. At the urging ofAmerican dealers 20 bore guns were introduced in 1957, the 28 bore was added in 1966. One .410 model 700 was made in 1967.

 

 

Just picked up on this thread. You really know your webley's, i have a 400 s/n 90840 . Lovely gun, drop points, silver oval, gorgeous walnut. Seem's a higher grade than usual. You don't have any info on the 400's by any chance. many thank's.

 

[London Best]

All I can add to the above information is that the Mod. 400 and Mod. 500 were produced with the famous Webley screw grip on the top rib extension. Also, I though that 400 production started in 1905 not 1900? Dunno why I thought that or which date is correct.

[Konor]

6 hours ago, London Best said:

All I can add to the above information is that the Mod. 400 and Mod. 500 were produced with the famous Webley screw grip on the top rib extension. Also, I though that 400 production started in 1905 not 1900? Dunno why I thought that or which date is correct.

Hi LB despite trawling through all my double gun journals I could find no further information on the  600 series Webley sorry. Crawford and Whatley in their book W and C Scott Gunmakers states that the Webley and Scott Model 400 grade 3 ( the cheapest grade) was produced from 1900 to 1946 perhaps the grade 1 or 2 started production in 1905.

 

[London Best]

Thank you very much for your efforts. 
You could easily be right about the 400 dates. We may never know now after 120 years.

[Konor]

10 hours ago, 222mark said:

Just picked up on this thread. You really know your webley's, i have a 400 s/n 90840 . Lovely gun, drop points, silver oval, gorgeous walnut. Seem's a higher grade than usual. You don't have any info on the 400's by any chance. many thank's.

 

Hi 222mark thank you for the compliment but the majority of my specific information was sourced from W and C Scott Gunmakers by J.A.Crawford and P.G.Whatley and passed on solely to inform I am definitely no Webley mastermind. There are others here on the forum with far more practical experience of Webley.Using the aforementioned book I can tell you that your Webley shotgun was made between 1912 and 1914 as 90000 is listed as manufactured 1912 and 91000 in 1914.

The Model 400 came in three grades and in 1914 the model 3 cost £18 the model 2 cost £24 and the model 1 cost £32.

The model 400 grade 1 was quite plain with minimal engraving as you would expect ,the model 1 had  extensive engraving on the action and fences and drop points on the wood. As London Best wrote earlier the model 400 was fitted with the Webley screw grip.

Seven Proprietary guns ie Model 400s two in 28 bore and five in 16 bore made in 1928 were among the last Webley and Scott guns with Damascus barrels, one other boxlock  a 20 bore was made in 1932 with Damascus barrels and two sets of Damascus barrels were sold to other gunmakers in 1938.

Percy Stanbury used his Webley and Scott model 400 to claim 47 championships between 1926 and 1953 looking up some information on Percy Stanbury and his gun may shed some more light on the Model 400 as may Googling the Webley Screw Grip. Best of luck in your quest.

[Konor]

38 minutes ago, London Best said:

Thank you very much for your efforts. 
You could easily be right about the 400 dates. We may never know now after 120 years.

London Best I may have found the answer regarding the dates quote from Crawford and Whatley’s book Page 65 
“Webley and Scott introduced the Proprietary hammerless boxlock, later called the Model 400 in 1900”

It may well be that the gun was first called the Model 400 in 1905 

[Konor]

On Page 69 

“ The Model 500 also called the Proprietary was a light game gun made only in Grade 2 “ “ Few guns of this model available in 12 and 16 bores were made during its production run 1925 to 1946.

So it appears that both the model 400 and 500 were referred to as the Proprietary model and were both made from 1925 to 1946.

However on page 68 there is an illustration of a “W and C Scott Double Barrel Trap Gun Grade 2 made on a Webley and Scott Model 400 pigeon gun action “ so perhaps the Model 400 was a heavier built 1 1/4 oz pigeon gun action Proprietary gun and the Model 500 was a lighter game gun action Proprietary gun.

27 minutes ago, Konor said:

Hi 222mark thank you for the compliment but the majority of my specific information was sourced from W and C Scott Gunmakers by J.A.Crawford and P.G.Whatley and passed on solely to inform I am definitely no Webley mastermind. There are others here on the forum with far more practical experience of Webley.Using the aforementioned book I can tell you that your Webley shotgun was made between 1912 and 1914 as 90000 is listed as manufactured 1912 and 91000 in 1914.

The Model 400 came in three grades and in 1914 the model 3 cost £18 the model 2 cost £24 and the model 1 cost £32.

The model 400 grade 1 was quite plain with minimal engraving as you would expect ,the model 1 had  extensive engraving on the action and fences and drop points on the wood. As London Best wrote earlier the model 400 was fitted with the Webley screw grip.

Seven Proprietary guns ie Model 400s two in 28 bore and five in 16 bore made in 1928 were among the last Webley and Scott guns with Damascus barrels, one other boxlock  a 20 bore was made in 1932 with Damascus barrels and two sets of Damascus barrels were sold to other gunmakers in 1938.

Percy Stanbury used his Webley and Scott model 400 to claim 47 championships between 1926 and 1953 looking up some information on Percy Stanbury and his gun may shed some more light on the Model 400 as may Googling the Webley Screw Grip. Best of luck in your quest.

I referred to model 1 ,2 and 3 it should have been grade 1,2 and 3 apologies

[Konor]

32 minutes ago, Konor said:

Hi 222mark thank you for the compliment but the majority of my specific information was sourced from W and C Scott Gunmakers by J.A.Crawford and P.G.Whatley and passed on solely to inform I am definitely no Webley mastermind. There are others here on the forum with far more practical experience of Webley.Using the aforementioned book I can tell you that your Webley shotgun was made between 1912 and 1914 as 90000 is listed as manufactured 1912 and 91000 in 1914.

The Model 400 came in three grades and in 1914 the model 3 cost £18 the model 2 cost £24 and the model 1 cost £32.

The model 400 grade 1 was quite plain with minimal engraving as you would expect ,the model 1 had  extensive engraving on the action and fences and drop points on the wood. As London Best wrote earlier the model 400 was fitted with the Webley screw grip.

Seven Proprietary guns ie Model 400s two in 28 bore and five in 16 bore made in 1928 were among the last Webley and Scott guns with Damascus barrels, one other boxlock  a 20 bore was made in 1932 with Damascus barrels and two sets of Damascus barrels were sold to other gunmakers in 1938.

Percy Stanbury used his Webley and Scott model 400 to claim 47 championships between 1926 and 1953 looking up some information on Percy Stanbury and his gun may shed some more light on the Model 400 as may Googling the Webley Screw Grip. Best of luck in your quest.

Should be Model 400 grade 3 was quite plain sorry a bit tired pacemaker fitted three weeks back and not quite 100%

[figgy]

Why did WC Scott have grades the opposite of what we have today.

I'm sure I've read on this forum the 700 was the base model the 702 the next grade up and the 701 is the top grade. Seems berry odd to me how the grade numbers work.

Gunman may know some of the history, he worked there as a gunsmith.

Edited September 16, 2020 by figgy

[Konor]

17 minutes ago, figgy said:

Why did WC Scott have grades the opposite of what we have today.

I'm sure I've read on this forum the 700 was the base model the 702 the next grade up and the 701 is the top grade. Seems berry odd to me how the grade numbers work.

Gunman may know some of the history, he worked there as a gunsmith.

Hi Figgy regarding the numbering of the 700 series guns. The Webley 700 was first introduced as a plain grade 3 version in 1947 it was four years later that the higher grade 702 and highest grade 701 were introduced. Perhaps if they had all been introduced in the same year they would have been numbered 701;702 and 703. The last being the model 700 in grade 3 ie the plainest gun.

[London Best]

All very interesting stuff. Thank you Konor. I like your theory regarding 400 dates.

[222mark]

Many thanks for the info. It confirmed what i already was led to believe.  My 400 does have the screw bite on the rib extension, alot of fine engraving and drop points + silver oval on stunning wood. Made in 1913 sold in 1914. It is certainley a grade 2 if not a grade 1 from your description.

[Konor]

4 hours ago, 222mark said:

Many thanks for the info. It confirmed what i already was led to believe.  My 400 does have the screw bite on the rib extension, alot of fine engraving and drop points + silver oval on stunning wood. Made in 1913 sold in 1914. It is certainley a grade 2 if not a grade 1 from your description.

That’s good that all the information ties together nicely I’ve attached a photograph of two model 400s in the hope that it helps identify your gun

11 hours ago, London Best said:

All very interesting stuff. Thank you Konor. I like your theory regarding 400 dates.

You’re welcome LB