Time for independence?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

What about this?

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by TIGHTCHOKE

[AVB]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

There are many levels of independence. Rather than look at separate countries why not have some sort of confederation rather than a Union? The Union is unstable as it is and needs a more devolved structure going forward. 

You could argue that the union is a confederation today. How would the Nat’s buy into a variation of what they have today  when they are craving their ‘freedom’?  And how would you sell it to the English who would see it as England continuing to bankroll Scotland?

Historically confederations have a short shelf life so I am not convinced this would be successful but would be interested to see how successful confederations make it work.  
 

 

[Eyefor]

36 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

What about this?

 

What about this

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

[oowee]

31 minutes ago, AVB said:

You could argue that the union is a confederation today. How would the Nat’s buy into a variation of what they have today  when they are craving their ‘freedom’?  And how would you sell it to the English who would see it as England continuing to bankroll Scotland?

Historically confederations have a short shelf life so I am not convinced this would be successful but would be interested to see how successful confederations make it work.  
 

 

I was thinking something like the States or Germany. Once you start the process of devolution stopping part way is going to be difficult if not impossible. It started with the nation states and has now started with the regions.

How do we persuade London to keep bankrolling the rest of us? You have some sort of devolution cash formulae just as there is supposed to be with the Covid handout.

[johnphilip]

8 hours ago, Konor said:

All I have read is generalisation and predictable insult of Nicola Sturgeon masquerading as political comment. Oil not ours? Have you read the GERS figures for Scottish oil and gas revenue or Scotland’s export figures?

Tourism ? Well during a pandemic what would anyone expect. The Northern Isles are keen not to encourage any tourists on to the islands as the high average age of residents and the lack of facilities should there be an outbreak probably justifies that caution. There are no shortage of camper vans travelling around mainland Scotland though and the North Coast 500 was at saturation level. Skye does not have sufficient infrastructure to cope with the demands of tourists so there’s no shortage there either.Your childlike assertion that Nicola Sturgeon seems to discourage tourists is at odds with the facts and your even more childlike labelling of her as Krankie seriously undermines your credibility.
Your assertion that she wishes to abolish shooting contrasts with her acknowledged need to encourage more deer to be shot by recreational stalkers to control their increasing numbers or the free access to the foreshore to wildfowl.

Your assertion that “I am asking others to do my work” is comical Johnphilip demands I answer a barrage of questions he may or may not know the answer to then states he has more after that Get Lost if he has questions needing an answer then let him look them up.

Do you honestly believe Scots are living off hand outs from England ? And who are you to judge whether Scots are capable of being self sufficient, a little englander pining for the trappings of the empire long lost.

You disappoint yourself with your arrogant manner and your derogatory tone.
Exports 2017 £81.4 bn 

Konor, I asked those question for one main reason . You don't know , because you have not been told what those costs would  be   why do you think that is so . 

I have nothing  against  you personally  , you are supporting the independence  but you have not been told the truth.  Is it not natural to know what the implications  are before you commit  yourself  to something and its outcome .

Are all politicians  not called names , if someone who you belive  is going to do damage to something you hold dear to your heart a country you love and hate the idea of it being  destroyed  your bound to feel ill of them  and call them names .

Has  she told us we may not get back into the EU . All these things have to be told to everyone,  if  there ever came another vote.  And when things go wrong she and others will not be around to pick up the pieces  . 

[markm]

36 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

Konor, I asked those question for one main reason . You don't know , because you have not been told what those costs would  be   why do you think that is so . 

I have nothing  against  you personally  , you are supporting the independence  but you have not been told the truth.  Is it not natural to know what the implications  are before you commit  yourself  to something and its outcome .

Are all politicians  not called names , if someone who you belive  is going to do damage to something you hold dear to your heart a country you love and hate the idea of it being  destroyed  your bound to feel ill of them  and call them names .

Has  she told us we may not get back into the EU . All these things have to be told to everyone,  if  there ever came another vote.  And when things go wrong she and others will not be around to pick up the pieces  . 

The big issue there is no creditable alternative in Scotland to the SNP. Whatever Nikeoliar (and her cronies) says / does isn’t challenged on STV so Scottish people take it as fact. 
 

Anything good happens = SNP’s fault. 
Anything bad happens = UK Gov fault*
 

*and that includes all devolved issues. The fact the SNP has missed 8/10 NHS targets is because of the UK Gov. 

[SpringDon]

If you believe brexit could be a success because of a historically proud and inventive people then you’re a blinkered little englander living in 1945.

If  believe breaking up the union could be a success because of a historically proud and inventive people then you’re optimistic and forward looking.

Funny old world, really.

[AVB]

57 minutes ago, oowee said:

I was thinking something like the States or Germany. Once you start the process of devolution stopping part way is going to be difficult if not impossible. It started with the nation states and has now started with the regions.

How do we persuade London to keep bankrolling the rest of us? You have some sort of devolution cash formulae just as there is supposed to be with the Covid handout.

Do the people of America see themselves as New Yorkers/Georgians/Coloradoians or Americans? I get the sense it’s the later. I would also think that People of Germany see themselves as German rather than Hamburgers/Bavarians etc. 
 

I feel that people of the U.K. see it very differently and it’s getting worse. 
 

I fear a complete split is the most likely. Definitely for Scotland and NI (merging with Ireland). Not sure about Wales. 

[Konor]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

There are many levels of independence. Rather than look at separate countries why not have some sort of confederation rather than a Union? The Union is unstable as it is and needs a more devolved structure going forward. 

It may be a more pragmatic way forward. 

[AVB]

4 minutes ago, Konor said:

It may be a more pragmatic way forward. 

Why do you need a pragmatic solution. Surely independence will work for you. Or are you not as convinced as you make out to be. 

[Konor]

1 hour ago, AVB said:

Why do you need a pragmatic solution. Surely independence will work for you. Or are you not as convinced as you make out to be. 

Why not? It would sidestep animosity between pro and anti independence voters and avoid a mess similar to the post Brexit vote. Provided Scotland is governed by those with its best interests at heart it may be the best way forward.
It wouldn’t please the extremists on either side or those looking on from afar but I wouldn’t be too concerned about that.

With that I will bow out I think I’ve expressed my views.

In answer to the guy from Northumberland who asked how were the needs of working Scots different from working Northumbrians, there’s no difference I just feel those needs are better met by being governed by an on-site Scottish government rather than from a Westminster Tory government you may feel the same way about Northumbria.

 

[Vince Green]

It still doesn't balance the books as a business plan Konor.  I think your real desire is summed up in your last paragraph.

You don't want to be governed by a Tory Government in Westminster,  

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

I just feel those needs are better met by being governed by an on-site Scottish government rather than from a Westminster Tory government

Serious question: your taxation, your freedom of speech and assembly, your laws (certainly criminal law), your ability to go shooting, is all legislated in Edinburgh not London.  What powers exactly do you think the FM and Holyrood are lacking?

The Westminster government, of whatever colour, has less and less influence on your daily life, as a consequence of devolution.

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

What powers exactly do you think the FM and Holyrood are lacking?

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

If you believe brexit could be a success because of a historically proud and inventive people then you’re a blinkered little englander living in 1945.

If  believe breaking up the union could be a success because of a historically proud and inventive people then you’re optimistic and forward looking.

Funny old world, really.

 

A valid point, but there is a difference. The UK wants to leave the EU because we subsidise the EU

Scotland, in contrast, allegedly wants to leave the UK who subsidise Scotland. 

The odd poster has never heard of the Barnett Formula.

 

[London Best]

Do not refer to Englishmen as ‘Englanders’.

The last person to do that was Adolf Hitler.

[oowee]

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Serious question: your taxation, your freedom of speech and assembly, your laws (certainly criminal law), your ability to go shooting, is all legislated in Edinburgh not London.  What powers exactly do you think the FM and Holyrood are lacking?

Budget, strategy, overall taxation, trade policy, arms policy, energy policy?

[AVB]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Budget, strategy, overall taxation, trade policy, arms policy, energy policy?

how would Budget responsibility work if there is no central bank for Scotland? How would the Scotland borrow money? 
 

 And what do you think should remain centralised? 

Edited October 22, 2020 by AVB

[WalkedUp]

If Scotland had the British pound, but its own budget and fiscal policy you would end up with the Eurozone crisis on a UK scale. Scotland is economical dwarfed by the remainder and would be on a losing wicket from day 1. 

[oowee]

6 hours ago, AVB said:

how would Budget responsibility work if there is no central bank for Scotland? How would the Scotland borrow money? 
 

 And what do you think should remain centralised? 

There are no doubt as many permutations of this as there are MP's. I don't see it so much as centralised or devolved so much as each area having a role to play in the overarching structures but being responsible for local delivery. There could be a centralised decision making body (a senate) with reps from each of the devolved areas playing a part. A proportionate representation system would need to be introduced probably together with some sort of constitution. In that way the strategy remains central but each area has a part to play in how it is formulated.

Each area would be able to levy it's own taxation supplementary to the National tax structure. Agreed fiscal rules (Euro style) could allow areas to borrow. 

Key to it would be mirroring what we are now trying to do with Brexit. Move the power from the centre to more accountable local bodies where it can be more responsive to local needs. Unlike now where there is a disconnect from the crude one size fits all policy application from a London Centric Govt and the people on the street.

Interesting just listening to question time extra time or some such on bbc r5l and George Osborne was commentating that the devolution process was only just started and devolving powers must follow. 

[Mice!]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

There are no doubt as many permutations of this as there are MP's. I don't see it so much as centralised or devolved so much as each area having a role to play in the overarching structures but being responsible for local delivery. There could be a centralised decision making body (a senate) with reps from each of the devolved areas playing a part. A proportionate representation system would need to be introduced probably together with some sort of constitution. In that way the strategy remains central but each area has a part to play in how it is formulated.

Each area would be able to levy it's own taxation supplementary to the National tax structure. Agreed fiscal rules (Euro style) could allow areas to borrow. 

Key to it would be mirroring what we are now trying to do with Brexit. Move the power from the centre to more accountable local bodies where it can be more responsive to local needs. Unlike now where there is a disconnect from the crude one size fits all policy application from a London Centric Govt and the people on the street.

Interesting just listening to question time extra time or some such on bbc r5l and George Osborne was commentating that the devolution process was only just started and devolving powers must follow. 

This sounds like a civil servants dream, more snouts in the trough like I've said above, I can't see it working,  how does it get broken down by counties or towns, North South and Midlands?

Seems like just another layer of government to be paid for, more salaries and pensions,  no thanks.

And funnily enough I've just watched the end of Braveheart on Sony 😅😅

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Time to start building castles again!

[AVB]

6 hours ago, oowee said:

There are no doubt as many permutations of this as there are MP's. I don't see it so much as centralised or devolved so much as each area having a role to play in the overarching structures but being responsible for local delivery. There could be a centralised decision making body (a senate) with reps from each of the devolved areas playing a part. A proportionate representation system would need to be introduced probably together with some sort of constitution. In that way the strategy remains central but each area has a part to play in how it is formulated.

Each area would be able to levy it's own taxation supplementary to the National tax structure. Agreed fiscal rules (Euro style) could allow areas to borrow. 

Key to it would be mirroring what we are now trying to do with Brexit. Move the power from the centre to more accountable local bodies where it can be more responsive to local needs. Unlike now where there is a disconnect from the crude one size fits all policy application from a London Centric Govt and the people on the street.

Interesting just listening to question time extra time or some such on bbc r5l and George Osborne was commentating that the devolution process was only just started and devolving powers must follow. 

I think it becomes complex, very costly and prime for finger pointing. Imo ripping the plaster off would be best and letting countries that want to go alone do so. As long as they pick up the cost of doing so. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

7 minutes ago, AVB said:

I think it becomes complex, very costly and prime for finger pointing. Imo ripping the plaster off would be best and letting countries that want to go alone do so. As long as they pick up the cost of doing so. 

Which means it can NEVER happen!