PeterHenry Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 (edited) All, Takeing the suggested maximum effective range of a standard steel cartridge as 30 yards or so, and the fact that to get equivalent knock down power you use shot two sizes larger than lead, and also takeing into account the greater speed of steel shot (albeit speed that drops off due to the lighter weight of the shot when compared with the equivalent sized lead shot) - would I be right in thinking that from December onwards in the game season, where I usualy move up from no 6's to no 5's, - the extra speed and hardness of steel no 4's (equivalent to lead no 6's, and the maximum shot size within the deffinition of standard steel) would compensate for the need to move up a shot size at 30 yards? Or would I be left under gunned? Or have I over thought this? I appreciate that some people would say just use HP steel, etc - but if you wouldent mind humouring me for the sake of debate. Best, Peter Edited November 30, 2020 by PeterHenry Spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 At 30 yards you will not be undergunned with steel 4's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted November 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, Smokersmith said: At 30 yards you will not be undergunned with steel 4's. 👍 Roughly speaking, at what kind of range would you say I would become undergunnned at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob85 Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 10 minutes ago, PeterHenry said: 👍 Roughly speaking, at what kind of range would you say I would become undergunnned at? For a pheasant I think a 32gram 4 would still do the job at up to 40 yards. Albeit a very lucky speculative shot but with my very first shot with a steel shot load, a 32gram 3 absolutely annihilated a big old crow at over 40yards, also to bear in mind this was with a full choke barrel so in fairness I may as well have hit it with an iron plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 5 minutes ago, Smokersmith said: At 30 yards you will not be undergunned with steel 4's. You could probably manage 35 with ease. But it depends what you mean by "undergunned". Going up the two shot sizes - which we know is actually three - is effective but does not equate to the 2 sizes smaller 6. If you did want to fully match the performance of lead 6 you'd need steel 3s and for the lead 5s, steel 2s. But, as above, at the distance that you've mentioned you're home and dry. Just seen your last post. What do you consider your maximum effective ranges are for the 6s and 5s in lead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted November 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Rob85 said: For a pheasant I think a 32gram 4 would still do the job at up to 40 yards. Albeit a very lucky speculative shot but with my very first shot with a steel shot load, a 32gram 3 absolutely annihilated a big old crow at over 40yards, also to bear in mind this was with a full choke barrel so in fairness I may as well have hit it with an iron plate. 👍 15 minutes ago, wymberley said: You could probably manage 35 with ease. But it depends what you mean by "undergunned". Going up the two shot sizes - which we know is actually three - is effective but does not equate to the 2 sizes smaller 6. If you did want to fully match the performance of lead 6 you'd need steel 3s and for the lead 5s, steel 2s. But, as above, at the distance that you've mentioned you're home and dry. Just seen your last post. What do you consider your maximum effective ranges are for the 6s and 5s in lead? This is perhaps going to come across as rather naive, but I'm not entirely sure. Most of my shooting is walked up or decoying - I get invited to two or three driven days a year at most - normally one or two. These tend to be the occasions where I'm shooting at higher birds, but I stand on peg and fire when they come over me - and while I can estimate in my own way how much lead to give them in a vuage and approximate manner, I couldent put a number of the amount of ft of lead or the hight the birds were at - I live and shoot in Cheshire, so perhaps not the world's highest birds, but plenty high enough when one of the drives is in a valley. Obviously, I know I need to factor range into it, which is why I went for 30 yards or so which seems to be the suggested maximum range for standard steel cartridges. In all, I would say that I have rarely shot at a bird over 40ft away. Not that i stated it earlier, but the underlying premise is if the AYA 25 I'm thinking of buying is still going to be a useful gun for driven game shooting with standard steel through the whole season. Edited November 30, 2020 by PeterHenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob85 Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 Just make sure you don't whack superior proof steel through it, open your chokes a little if it's choked tight but I have to say the 25 could be one of the best side by side walked up guns around. Standard pressure steel through it for majority walked up should be fine, for the driven shooting just remember a bird doesn't have to be intergalactic height to be a sporting bird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, PeterHenry said: 👍 This is perhaps going to come across as rather naive, but I'm not entirely sure. Most of my shooting is walked up or decoying - I get invited to two or three driven days a year at most - normally one or two. These tend to be the occasions where I'm shooting at higher birds, but I stand on peg and fire when they come over me - and while I can estimate in my own way how much lead to give them in a vuage and approximate manner, I couldent put a number of the amount of ft of lead or the hight the birds were at - I live and shoot in Cheshire, so perhaps not the world's highest birds, but plenty high enough when one of the drives is in a valley. Obviously, I know I need to factor range into it, which is why I went for 30 yards or so which seems to be the suggested maximum range for standard steel cartridges. In all, I would say that I have rarely shot at a bird over 40ft away. Well said. Had you replied, 'x' and 'y' I would have compared the energys at those distances for lead with those for the necessary steel. However, we'd only be talking absolute maximums which is rarely encountered and consequently your response makes far greater sense. Good shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 You are all overthinking with insufficient practical experience. For fifteen years I shot Canada geese alongside a river nearly a hundred yards wide. For ten of those years I had to use non toxic shot. I found that 32 gram Express Hunting Steel No.4’s killed geese with monotonous regularity approximately halfway across the river. The tightest choke used would be quarter, as I did not possess a gun tighter than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearwater Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 30 yards the birds are very close so don't think it should make much difference, that's the way I see it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 PeterHenry, an AYA 25 will be absolutely fine at all times for all normal game shooting, walked and driven, lead or steel. Just enjoy it, and shoot for the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 17 minutes ago, London Best said: You are all overthinking with insufficient practical experience. For fifteen years I shot Canada geese alongside a river nearly a hundred yards wide. For ten of those years I had to use non toxic shot. I found that 32 gram Express Hunting Steel No.4’s killed geese with monotonous regularity approximately halfway across the river. The tightest choke used would be quarter, as I did not possess a gun tighter than that. Been meaning to ask for a little while now, where did you get your tape measure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 Just now, wymberley said: Been meaning to ask for a little while now, where did you get your tape measure? I bought it in the early sixties when I started shooting. No man alive can estimate range precisely to a flying bird. You can spout all the theory you like, I know those birds were over forty yards away and clean killed consistently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted November 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 31 minutes ago, Rob85 said: Just make sure you don't whack superior proof steel through it, open your chokes a little if it's choked tight but I have to say the 25 could be one of the best side by side walked up guns around. Standard pressure steel through it for majority walked up should be fine, for the driven shooting just remember a bird doesn't have to be intergalactic height to be a sporting bird 👍 30 minutes ago, wymberley said: Well said. Had you replied, 'x' and 'y' I would have compared the energys at those distances for lead with those for the necessary steel. However, we'd only be talking absolute maximums which is rarely encountered and consequently your response makes far greater sense. Good shooting. 👍 25 minutes ago, London Best said: You are all overthinking with insufficient practical experience. For fifteen years I shot Canada geese alongside a river nearly a hundred yards wide. For ten of those years I had to use non toxic shot. I found that 32 gram Express Hunting Steel No.4’s killed geese with monotonous regularity approximately halfway across the river. The tightest choke used would be quarter, as I did not possess a gun tighter than that. 👍 14 minutes ago, Shearwater said: 30 yards the birds are very close so don't think it should make much difference, that's the way I see it 👍 10 minutes ago, London Best said: PeterHenry, an AYA 25 will be absolutely fine at all times for all normal game shooting, walked and driven, lead or steel. Just enjoy it, and shoot for the head. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, London Best said: I bought it in the early sixties when I started shooting. No man alive can estimate range precisely to a flying bird. You can spout all the theory you like, I know those birds were over forty yards away and clean killed consistently. Ah, recently, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alic Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, PeterHenry said: 2 hours ago, PeterHenry said: All, Takeing the suggested maximum effective range of a standard steel cartridge as 30 yards or so, and the fact that to get equivalent knock down power you use shot two sizes larger than lead, and also takeing into account the greater speed of steel shot (albeit speed that drops off due to the lighter weight of the shot when compared with the equivalent sized lead shot) - would I be right in thinking that from December onwards in the game season, where I usualy move up from no 6's to no 5's, - the extra speed and hardness of steel no 4's (equivalent to lead no 6's, and the maximum shot size within the deffinition of standard steel) would compensate for the need to move up a shot size at 30 yards? Or would I be left under gunned? Or have I over thought this? I appreciate that some people would say just use HP steel, etc - but if you wouldent mind humouring me for the sake of debate. Best, Peter I used eley eco pro 32/5 steel last season through a half choke no problems on any birds 40/50 and a couple of long range pigeon ( more luck I think ). At close range with greater numbers of pellets I think they can do excessive damage Edited November 30, 2020 by alic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted November 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 31 minutes ago, alic said: I used eley eco pro 32/5 steel last season through a half choke no problems on any birds 40/50 and a couple of long range pigeon ( more luck I think ). At close range with greater numbers of pellets I think they can do excessive damage 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 The 32g 4 are used to take wildfowl and work very well. Pattern your gun with them at different ranges and see how they perform. You will know where the limit is when you see your patterns open out and get patchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearwater Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 While we on the topic, I'll add that the pattern on the new Eley below isn't perfect yet ELEY HAWK LAUNCHES THE FIRST DISOLVABLE AND BIODEGRADEABLE WAD | Eley Hawk (eleyhawkltd.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Not surprised by poor patterns, the wads petals are not opening as they should. There acting as a solid tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
243deer Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 1 hour ago, figgy said: Not surprised by poor patterns, the wads petals are not opening as they should. There acting as a solid tube. I believe that there are screw in chokes now that have teeth that are just enough to catch the wad and slow it slightly thus allowing the shot to release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Stripper chokes, are not going to help when people want to shoot them through fixed choke game guns. They best sort the wad splitting properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 2, 2020 Report Share Posted December 2, 2020 On 30/11/2020 at 18:26, Smokersmith said: At 30 yards you will not be undergunned with steel 4's. Even 1400would be fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 On 30/11/2020 at 18:26, Smokersmith said: At 30 yards you will not be undergunned with steel 4's. I would imagine he wouldn't be too undergunned with steel 7.5s at that range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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