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Recession, ban on lead shot....problems?


Dave at kelton
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Just followed Holts latest auction this week as I had my eye on a few of things. It was staggering how much was sold and not just the cheaper stuff. If we are in recession or people are worried about the impending ban on lead shot it seemed not to be reflected in demand that I can see. I know a lot of dealers are struggling with side by sides but the good, and not so good, stuff still seemed to sell well.

I didn’t  buy as the prices were more than I was prepared to pay when you add buyers premium etc. Perhaps it’s just me that is affected by it all?

I will just have to do with the sealed bid stuff.

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I went to a local sporting auction a few months back. Mainly air rifles but a few shotguns. The prices many items sold for seemed surprisingly high to me but I did hear a few people mention the Corvid grants so I wondered if there were some dealers who'd received grant money and were stocking up.

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On 10/12/2020 at 21:45, Konor said:

I think overseas buyers especially America might be the source of much of the bidding. I was surprised that the Alex Martin badged Saleri over and under under went for low estimate though.

So was I - but I bought it anyway!  £2400 including premium seemed like a good deal to me - and its the right length of stock too.  Can't wait for it to be delivered.  I think people were confused/put off by the "Gamba" reference, thinking it was made by Gamba, when in fact the engraving was by the master engraver Lorenzo Gamba.  

 

I found an original ad in an old Shooting Gazette for that range of guns - the most basic model cost £6000 in 2000, so this one (mid range) would have been a fair bit more I think.  Seemed like a bit of a bargain.

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3 hours ago, MelJones said:

So was I - but I bought it anyway!  £2400 including premium seemed like a good deal to me - and its the right length of stock too.  Can't wait for it to be delivered.  I think people were confused/put off by the "Gamba" reference, thinking it was made by Gamba, when in fact the engraving was by the master engraver Lorenzo Gamba.  

 

I found an original ad in an old Shooting Gazette for that range of guns - the most basic model cost £6000 in 2000, so this one (mid range) would have been a fair bit more I think.  Seemed like a bit of a bargain.

I’m not sure why anyone would be put off by the Gamba name; they make some of the best shotguns out there, and a Perazzi salesman at the CLA once told me that most of their high grade guns are finished by Gamba. 

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8 hours ago, MelJones said:

So was I - but I bought it anyway!  £2400 including premium seemed like a good deal to me - and its the right length of stock too.  Can't wait for it to be delivered.  I think people were confused/put off by the "Gamba" reference, thinking it was made by Gamba, when in fact the engraving was by the master engraver Lorenzo Gamba.  

 

I found an original ad in an old Shooting Gazette for that range of guns - the most basic model cost £6000 in 2000, so this one (mid range) would have been a fair bit more I think.  Seemed like a bit of a bargain.

Congratulations I don’t think you will be disappointed. There was one for sale in Holts in Spring last year. I was shooting clays at Dunkeld House Hotel in March and called in to Dicksons and asked about the Alex Martin badged over and unders . They had two for sale cheapest was £6000 . I was told by one of the gunsmiths  if I got the Holts one for sale last year for £3000 hammer price I would have got a bargain. I bought the Alex Dalgleish over and under in Holts March sale this year at low estimate ,very pleased with it hope you are just as pleased with yours.

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Thanks all - hopefully be with me tomorrow or Thursday and then out to use it on the pheasants on Saturday.  Will let you know.

Nothing wrong with Gamba guns, I quite agree.  They seem to have fallen out of popularity though since the early 2000s, but I've never been afraid to buy what I want rather what people might think one ought to have. 

I've shot with a Perazzi MX8 for 20 years (and I do love it).  But I fancied a lighter game gun.  The price of a comparable MX8 in SC3 engraving (which is not as refined as the Martin in my view) would be north of £10k second hand.  I actually think the Martin is closer to an SCO grade, especially considering the timber, but we'll have to see when it arrives.  

From what I've seen, this appears to be a slightly later version - produced by William Solari (WR Solari) on his own rather than in partnership with the Poli brothers (as WIFRA Armi).  Be interested to know more about the collaboration.  From what I have found though, it seems to be an entirely handbuilt gun.  

I love these quirky guns which aren't in a conventional mass produced line up (however well made).  I kicked myself a few years ago for not buying a semi-bespoke Beretta from William Evans who had had a range produced for them with higher grade engraving, wood etc.  They had a few at the £10-12k mark from memory.  I think this was from a range produced by Tony Kennedy (https://www.thefield.co.uk/reviews/review/kennedy-beretta-gun-review).  

 

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The Alex Martin arrived.  It's fabulous.  Needed a jolly good clean to get some lead striping out of the lower barrel in particular - but it has 18.3 bores, so pretty tight and should be good with fibre game cartridges.  

Looking forward to taking it out against the pheasants tomorrow.  Fits almost perfectly, but could do with a fraction more cast for me.

 

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Some People are short sighted. 

Furlough has been extended again and there’s still a lot of people sat at home spending no money. 

My mate has been furloughed again. His job was at high risk last time, he spend all his furlough money doing up his house. 
 

God knows what he will spend it on this time. 
 

Personally I’d be keeping it all in the bank but some people have done very well over lockdown, some businesses busier than ever and my Mrs has continued earlier a good salary whilst working from home and due to this has managed to save a good amount of money from not travelling or having to buy stuff when out and about. 
 

 

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7 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Some People are short sighted. 
Furlough has been extended again and there’s still a lot of people sat at home spending no money. 

My mate has been furloughed again. His job was at high risk last time, he spend all his furlough money doing up his house. 

God knows what he will spend it on this time. 

Personally I’d be keeping it all in the bank but some people have done very well over lockdown, some businesses busier than ever and my Mrs has continued earlier a good salary whilst working from home and due to this has managed to save a good amount of money from not travelling or having to buy stuff when out and about. 

A glass firm I now of has been unable to keep up with demand. As you say many people have put the money in to their property rather than a new car or the unavaailable holiday.

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1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

A glass firm I now of has been unable to keep up with demand. As you say many people have put the money in to their property rather than a new car or the unavaailable holiday.

 

Explains why so many building trades have been so busy, and also why DIY and trade supplies shops have been so busy. 

 

Which seems like a good idea until you get made redundant, and the £10k you just spend doing up the house could have paid the mortgage and bare essentials until you found a new job. 

 

When people get laid off and then have no savings they'll be blaming the Government like its their fault. 

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On 15/12/2020 at 09:54, MelJones said:

Thanks all - hopefully be with me tomorrow or Thursday and then out to use it on the pheasants on Saturday.  Will let you know.

Nothing wrong with Gamba guns, I quite agree.  They seem to have fallen out of popularity though since the early 2000s, but I've never been afraid to buy what I want rather what people might think one ought to have. 

I've shot with a Perazzi MX8 for 20 years (and I do love it).  But I fancied a lighter game gun.  The price of a comparable MX8 in SC3 engraving (which is not as refined as the Martin in my view) would be north of £10k second hand.  I actually think the Martin is closer to an SCO grade, especially considering the timber, but we'll have to see when it arrives.  

From what I've seen, this appears to be a slightly later version - produced by William Solari (WR Solari) on his own rather than in partnership with the Poli brothers (as WIFRA Armi).  Be interested to know more about the collaboration.  From what I have found though, it seems to be an entirely handbuilt gun.  

I love these quirky guns which aren't in a conventional mass produced line up (however well made).  I kicked myself a few years ago for not buying a semi-bespoke Beretta from William Evans who had had a range produced for them with higher grade engraving, wood etc.  They had a few at the £10-12k mark from memory.  I think this was from a range produced by Tony Kennedy (https://www.thefield.co.uk/reviews/review/kennedy-beretta-gun-review).  

 

I have got an old Dickson catalogue that I will dig out that has the Alex Martin range in for you when our travel restrictions up here are lifted

I used to look at them in the Fredrick Street shop, lovely guns

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Maybe look at the smaller auctions. I watched an on line auction live as I intend to bid. Unfortunately I underestimated the Internet time lag and my bid was rejected after the hammer down.

I was shocked at the amount of guns not bid on.

A Cooey model 84 (i have one, so roughly aware of value) opening ask £10. No bids, hammer down, unsold.

Army & Navy English hammer gun, opening ask £50, reduced to its reserve £40, no bids, hammer down, unsold.

It went on like that all day. Guns going for as little as £8. Many just unsold. Obviously I have no idea of condition but its my belief they can't be sold if out of proof.

It was my first live on line auction, so mainly I sat observing and learning.

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On 19/12/2020 at 08:17, Centrepin said:

Maybe look at the smaller auctions. I watched an on line auction live as I intend to bid. Unfortunately I underestimated the Internet time lag and my bid was rejected after the hammer down.

I was shocked at the amount of guns not bid on.

A Cooey model 84 (i have one, so roughly aware of value) opening ask £10. No bids, hammer down, unsold.

Army & Navy English hammer gun, opening ask £50, reduced to its reserve £40, no bids, hammer down, unsold.

It went on like that all day. Guns going for as little as £8. Many just unsold. Obviously I have no idea of condition but its my belief they can't be sold if out of proof.

It was my first live on line auction, so mainly I sat observing and learning.

Was that Wilsons?  Agreed - some exceptionally cheap guns out there at the moment if you don't mind the lower end of the market.  Strong prices though for anything of quality in the main, or if it has one of the big makers names on it - sleeved or clapped out (16thou barrel walls) Purdeys selling for £4k plus commission is just ludicrous really.

On 18/12/2020 at 19:20, welshwarrior said:

MelJones you’ve a beautiful gun there was very tempted to put in a bid similar to your win bid but talked myself out of it as it should have gone for much more.  Congratulations nothing ventured and I didn’t gain anything hope you enjoy it. 

Thanks.  Shot with it on Saturday and it is very pleasant to use.  Needs a touch more cast and is perhaps a fraction high in the stock, but I will soon have that tweaked.  Other guns remarked on how well I was shooting, so can't complain at that.  Hadn't managed to take it out at all before I stood on the peg.  

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 19/12/2020 at 08:17, Centrepin said:

Maybe look at the smaller auctions. I watched an on line auction live as I intend to bid. Unfortunately I underestimated the Internet time lag and my bid was rejected after the hammer down.

I was shocked at the amount of guns not bid on.

A Cooey model 84 (i have one, so roughly aware of value) opening ask £10. No bids, hammer down, unsold.

Army & Navy English hammer gun, opening ask £50, reduced to its reserve £40, no bids, hammer down, unsold.

It went on like that all day. Guns going for as little as £8. Many just unsold. Obviously I have no idea of condition but its my belief they can't be sold if out of proof.

It was my first live on line auction, so mainly I sat observing and learning.

I follow the auctions a lot and can really see the market falling out on the mid to lower end. The really desirable items are maintaining prices, although relative to original costs they still bargains. Always remember to factor in the auctioneer's fees and the VAT payable on those fees. Bonhams realised prices include these, but the hammer prices you see won't. Sadly Holts have stopped giving access to realised prices after receiving pressure from the trade. 

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1 hour ago, theshootist said:

I follow the auctions a lot and can really see the market falling out on the mid to lower end. The really desirable items are maintaining prices, although relative to original costs they still bargains. Always remember to factor in the auctioneer's fees and the VAT payable on those fees. Bonhams realised prices include these, but the hammer prices you see won't. Sadly Holts have stopped giving access to realised prices after receiving pressure from the trade. 

Holts prices are published. Just go to the site and look under the Auctions tab.

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On 14/12/2020 at 10:57, MelJones said:

So was I - but I bought it anyway!  £2400 including premium seemed like a good deal to me - and its the right length of stock too.  Can't wait for it to be delivered.  I think people were confused/put off by the "Gamba" reference, thinking it was made by Gamba, when in fact the engraving was by the master engraver Lorenzo Gamba.  

 

I found an original ad in an old Shooting Gazette for that range of guns - the most basic model cost £6000 in 2000, so this one (mid range) would have been a fair bit more I think.  Seemed like a bit of a bargain.

I'm not normally a fan of engraving, maybe because I've not had anything that has been hand engraved. But that is a thing of beauty!

Its going to be some time if ever before you can pull that out the cabinet without a smile on your face! 

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On 14/12/2020 at 10:57, MelJones said:

I think people were confused/put off by the "Gamba" reference, thinking it was made by Gamba, when in fact the engraving was by the master engraver Lorenzo Gamba.  

Oh Lord! I saw it and thought it was a misprint and the thing had been made by a local gunsmith in West Africa...

Edited by enfieldspares
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