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Don’t worry. Iv not come across one. 
I was just thinking the other day that with it being easy enough for criminals to fake things nowadays, 

how do you know if some bloke turning up to your house with his certificate and leaving with your gun hasn’t had it made up to just illegally buy a gun. How many of us actually look that closely at other people’s certificates. Or could actually tell a good fake. 
which lead me to think the police should have a website you can go on and access with your certificate number and details and input said buyers details and it says if it’s legitimate or not and has a photo of the holder so you would then know it was all above board. 
or am I over thinking things. Where would you stand in such a situation, if the police were to ring one day and tell you the bloke you claim to of just sold your shotgun to doesn’t exist. Worth thinking about??

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39 minutes ago, Lucasnorth said:

Don’t worry. Iv not come across one. 
I was just thinking the other day that with it being easy enough for criminals to fake things nowadays, 

how do you know if some bloke turning up to your house with his certificate and leaving with your gun hasn’t had it made up to just illegally buy a gun. How many of us actually look that closely at other people’s certificates. Or could actually tell a good fake. 
which lead me to think the police should have a website you can go on and access with your certificate number and details and input said buyers details and it says if it’s legitimate or not and has a photo of the holder so you would then know it was all above board. 
or am I over thinking things. Where would you stand in such a situation, if the police were to ring one day and tell you the bloke you claim to of just sold your shotgun to doesn’t exist. Worth thinking about??


 

If someone really wanted your shotguns and had contacted you online to “buy one” to the point you gave them your address and you let them into your home, do you think they’d need a fake shotgun ticket?

 

More likely once you opened the door they’d kick your head in, make you tell them where the keys were and clean you out of all you’ve got. Not walk out with a single sporting shotgun. 
 

To be quite realistic however, criminals don’t need to bother with that nonsense.
 

Most crime in the U.K. doesn’t involve firearms and if they did really need one they have access to them. 
 

The low level plastic gangsters might have a stolen shotgun  because they’re mostly idiots doing idiotic things. That level of character is in and out of jail regularly as it’s part of their life style and getting caught with a firearm is too much bother. They don’t even need one for the type of low level crimes they commit so why take the risk. 
 

The real players are sophisticated operators who have about as much desire of coming around your house as you do of having them round.  If they want firearms I have no doubt they have the connections and resources to acquire them, and they won’t be a skeet shotgun. 


 

 

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2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:


 

If someone really wanted your shotguns and had contacted you online to “buy one” to the point you gave them your address and you let them into your home, do you think they’d need a fake shotgun ticket?

 

More likely once you opened the door they’d kick your head in, make you tell them where the keys were and clean you out of all you’ve got. Not walk out with a single sporting shotgun. 
 

To be quite realistic however, criminals don’t need to bother with that nonsense.
 

Most crime in the U.K. doesn’t involve firearms and if they did really need one they have access to them. 
 

The low level plastic gangsters might have a stolen shotgun  because they’re mostly idiots doing idiotic things. That level of character is in and out of jail regularly as it’s part of their life style and getting caught with a firearm is too much bother. They don’t even need one for the type of low level crimes they commit so why take the risk. 
 

The real players are sophisticated operators who have about as much desire of coming around your house as you do of having them round.  If they want firearms I have no doubt they have the connections and resources to acquire them, and they won’t be a skeet shotgun. 


 

 

Something your not telling us Lloyd? Ex CID? The Sweeney possibly?😁

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Just now, fatchap said:

Something your not telling us Lloyd? Ex CID? The Sweeney possibly?😁

 

Social worker me mate, I work in the emergency out of hours team and mental health, but work alongside some very good professionals and my personal circles involve lots of professionals in security, police and intelligence (Police, GCHQ, NCA etc). 

 

NCA have published about it look:

https://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/what-we-do/crime-threats/firearms 

Firearms being smuggled into the UK from Europe. If they can smuggle tons and tons of top grade class A drugs, there's nothing stopping them throwing a few guns in with their shipments. 

 

Theft from licenced firearms holders is acknowlged as a possibility however. 

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I used to remember a while back there was a few incidents of people being followed home from clay shoots and being relieved of their guns.

But like you say if you want a "shoota" you know where to get one if you operate in those circles.

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5 hours ago, Lucasnorth said:

Don’t worry. Iv not come across one. 
I was just thinking the other day that with it being easy enough for criminals to fake things nowadays, 

how do you know if some bloke turning up to your house with his certificate and leaving with your gun hasn’t had it made up to just illegally buy a gun. How many of us actually look that closely at other people’s certificates. Or could actually tell a good fake. 
which lead me to think the police should have a website you can go on and access with your certificate number and details and input said buyers details and it says if it’s legitimate or not and has a photo of the holder so you would then know it was all above board. 
or am I over thinking things. Where would you stand in such a situation, if the police were to ring one day and tell you the bloke you claim to of just sold your shotgun to doesn’t exist. Worth thinking about??

But the fact that you notify the Firearms Licensing dept would/should alert them to a problem.

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17 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

But the fact that you notify the Firearms Licensing dept would/should alert them to a problem.

If I sold a gun to someone and followed all the right procedures and it turned out it was a fake licence I do not trust that the Police would say "Oh, sorry, Madam, but don't worry, you're not responsible for what was done with the gun after you sold it in good faith." They would keelhaul you. 

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5 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:


 

If someone really wanted your shotguns and had contacted you online to “buy one” to the point you gave them your address and you let them into your home, do you think they’d need a fake shotgun ticket?

 

More likely once you opened the door they’d kick your head in, make you tell them where the keys were and clean you out of all you’ve got. Not walk out with a single sporting shotgun. 
 

To be quite realistic however, criminals don’t need to bother with that nonsense.
 

Most crime in the U.K. doesn’t involve firearms and if they did really need one they have access to them. 
 

The low level plastic gangsters might have a stolen shotgun  because they’re mostly idiots doing idiotic things. That level of character is in and out of jail regularly as it’s part of their life style and getting caught with a firearm is too much bother. They don’t even need one for the type of low level crimes they commit so why take the risk. 
 

The real players are sophisticated operators who have about as much desire of coming around your house as you do of having them round.  If they want firearms I have no doubt they have the connections and resources to acquire them, and they won’t be a skeet shotgun. 


 

 

How do you know the guy who is opening the door  , your  going to be able to take on . I am 6foot 5 . Ex marine 15 stone , try it . 

Maybe someone does not want a gun for violence  . They just want one for illegal  use , say they had applied  for there SGC , and were refused for what ever reason . 

They were hell bent on getting one by illegal  means , but not by violence  .

When we go to a clayground  do we know that everyone  walking around has a SGC . I have sold a couple of guns privately  , and to be honest did not check out there tickets with a fine toothed comb . So guess it could happen , has it happened  , no idea .

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I think criminals go for dealers more than us end users - kellbrock shooting got done a few years ago have some very nice guns believe  they only took the semi autos ! That tells most of us a lot. Personally I don’t think they would want the face to face contact. Though to be fair it has crossed my mind and I usually ask if I can photo there fac on my phone and explain why.

Agriv8

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49 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

How do you know the guy who is opening the door  , your  going to be able to take on . I am 6foot 5 . Ex marine 15 stone , try it . 

Maybe someone does not want a gun for violence  . They just want one for illegal  use , say they had applied  for there SGC , and were refused for what ever reason . 

They were hell bent on getting one by illegal  means , but not by violence  .

When we go to a clayground  do we know that everyone  walking around has a SGC . I have sold a couple of guns privately  , and to be honest did not check out there tickets with a fine toothed comb . So guess it could happen , has it happened  , no idea .

 

How many folk on average are 15 stone and 6ft 5? 

If they turn up with 5-6 blokes tooled up your going to take them all down are you? 

 

There was an incident where this did happen a few months / years back. They threatened to pour kettle water on the blokes wife, he just told em where his keys were... 

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27 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

How many folk on average are 15 stone and 6ft 5? 

If they turn up with 5-6 blokes tooled up your going to take them all down are you? 

 

There was an incident where this did happen a few months / years back. They threatened to pour kettle water on the blokes wife, he just told em where his keys were... 

The original  question was asked about the possible use of an illegal  SGC . You pointed out  that a person could use violence  to get the said shotgun.  I just made a point that , perhaps  it would be silly to presume you can knock on a guys door and beat him up to take said shotgun of that person . The hole object of the question was the use of a illegal  made SGC.

5 or 6 blokes turning up at a person  door are not likely  going to say here is my dodgy  SGC .

I gave a possible  reason for someone wanting to obtain a shotgun  , for reasons,  one of them being perhaps  they had applied and were refused . Yet they still wished to own a shotgun . There are no checks on people not obtaining  a SGC , that I am aware  of .

A person obtaining  a shotgun by this method would be hard to trace afterwards. 

I dont know if one has ever been made and used . But all things are  possible.  And until it happens we will never know. 

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6 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

After taking his aspirin and having had his lie down the OP if he has a SGC or FAC he should hold either up to a bright light.

They are watermarked.

Five of my FACs/SGCs  together with a couple of Section 28B letters have additional marks following an accident involving a full mug of coffee on my computer desk. :whistling:

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To me, a bigger concern is why the Police post out your unsigned certificates through the normal mail. Its obvious through the envelopes 'window' what it is by the print, paper and colour. Any one working with Royal Mail could easily identify it and steal it. That would be an easier method of getting a certificate rather than a forgery. Obviously it would need the picture changed but that would be relatively easy to do. 

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3 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

To me, a bigger concern is why the Police post out your unsigned certificates through the normal mail. Its obvious through the envelopes 'window' what it is by the print, paper and colour. Any one working with Royal Mail could easily identify it and steal it. That would be an easier method of getting a certificate rather than a forgery. Obviously it would need the picture changed but that would be relatively easy to do. 

That has always bothered me. Prior to using emails, I used to send notifications by recorded mail for security.

Then they send my licence by snail mail... obviously a cost cutting exercise but the extra cost of secure postage could be incorporated into the  fees.

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9 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

To me, a bigger concern is why the Police post out your unsigned certificates through the normal mail. Its obvious through the envelopes 'window' what it is by the print, paper and colour. Any one working with Royal Mail could easily identify it and steal it. That would be an easier method of getting a certificate rather than a forgery. Obviously it would need the picture changed but that would be relatively easy to do. 

A very valid  point , you don't know you have been granted your SGC till it drops on the mat . And if its nicked before you even get it , what troubles lay ahead for you .

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I always carry a photocopy of mine which is in black and white because i once lost a FAC when i was out  surely with  todays criminals they could copy a certificate with colored  and  the right paper and change the photo same as they do with bank notes 

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4 minutes ago, Scully said:

I honestly can’t see why any criminal would go to the length of trying to fake a SGC at all. 
If you think about it logically it’s a none starter. 


Exactly. 
 

They don’t need to. 

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8 hours ago, stuartyboy said:

To me, a bigger concern is why the Police post out your unsigned certificates through the normal mail. Its obvious through the envelopes 'window' what it is by the print, paper and colour. Any one working with Royal Mail could easily identify it and steal it. That would be an easier method of getting a certificate rather than a forgery. Obviously it would need the picture changed but that would be relatively easy to do. 

I'm not sure changing the photo would be that easy, as it's printed on the cert you'd have to scan it and reprint on good proxy paper etc?

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