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Are the firing pins working?


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Hey guys,

Yesterday I got a second hand Winchester O/U gun in very good condition. So far I haven't fired it. When it is empty and I pull the trigger it the 1st firing pin releases (a click sound) but on the second pull of the trigger the 2nd firing doesn't release (no sound)

Is this normal, simply because there are no cartridges in it? (I have ordered a couple of snap caps to try it with them)

Or this means something is wrong?

My old Baikal releases the 2nd firing pin on the second trigger pull.

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Is the recoil from the first fired cartridge not required normally? Thump the butt pad after firing the first barrel, or dunt it (carefully!) off the floor to simulate this. Second barrel should then fire the snap cap.

 

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I always thought that it was bad practice to pull the triggers onto empty chambers for fear of damaging the springs. Hence the use of snap caps. However, this may just be on older guns with leaf springs and not more modern guns with coil springs. 
Perhaps someone could enlighten me on this practice on modern guns.

In answer to the OPs query, as Bruno22rf has said, moving the selector switch sets it over to the other trigger. 
 

OB

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7 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

I always thought that it was bad practice to pull the triggers onto empty chambers for fear of damaging the springs. Hence the use of snap caps. However, this may just be on older guns with leaf springs and not more modern guns with coil springs. 
Perhaps someone could enlighten me on this practice on modern guns.

In answer to the OPs query, as Bruno22rf has said, moving the selector switch sets it over to the other trigger. 

Yes older guns a necessity. But not great practice at any time.

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1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Yes older guns a necessity. But not great practice at any time.

That’s what I thought. However, knocking the butt of the stock as also suggested does check the operation of the inertia system I suppose.
 

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My Beretta 687 when new with coil springs said in the instructions that you must use snap caps. Pity they did not supply them!

I really dont think it's anything to do with the springs. I read that it's to stop the shoulders of the pins taking the brunt of stopping instead o hitting t the primer first. Perhaps wrong. I often am.

Edited by DUNKS
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How often do you pull he trigger on an empty chambe.  How much does a cartridge cost ?  Just cut one or two cartridges open and leave the primer in ...  snap cap .

Not too difficult to make a ouple of snap caps up from shot catridges with a spring from a ball point and a piece of round plastic to fit the hole and attached to the spring, hot glued into place.  Cheap and cheerful .

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Everyone knows snapcap are the work of Satan as has been pointed out many times on this forum. 😈

On a slightly more serious note, plastic ones are. 

I use brass snap caps in my sxs (leaf springs) but don't bother in guns with coil springs. I also take the point above that a couple of spent carts probably works just as well. 

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 Old Boggy ,

Apart from the old Miroku 800 , I can not think of a Japanese made gun that has V springs . A few makers sick to them , Parazzi springs to mind if you forgive the pun .

Dry firing on the odd occasion should not do any harm  , certainly not to the springs . Biggest risk is that you can break a striker /firing pin . With age they can work harden passed there intended hardness and having change in profile the nose will some time break off with the inertial forward force  and suden stop . Less likely to happen in sprung strikers but again these striker springs will and do  deterioate .

Snap caps can help to prevent this ,but not all snap caps ,as many are just as bad as nothing , heavy ones can damage extractors and worn ones can drag on the fired pins .

Dry firing and opening the gun alowwing the ejectors to fly out is as likely to cause the extractor head to break off as a broken striker  . 

Personally I always liked to use clean once fire cases for a few times then change them .

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1 hour ago, Gunman said:

 Old Boggy ,

Apart from the old Miroku 800 , I can not think of a Japanese made gun that has V springs . A few makers sick to them , Parazzi springs to mind if you forgive the pun .

Dry firing on the odd occasion should not do any harm  , certainly not to the springs . Biggest risk is that you can break a striker /firing pin . With age they can work harden passed there intended hardness and having change in profile the nose will some time break off with the inertial forward force  and suden stop . Less likely to happen in sprung strikers but again these striker springs will and do  deterioate .

Snap caps can help to prevent this ,but not all snap caps ,as many are just as bad as nothing , heavy ones can damage extractors and worn ones can drag on the fired pins .

Dry firing and opening the gun alowwing the ejectors to fly out is as likely to cause the extractor head to break off as a broken striker  . 

Personally I always liked to use clean once fire cases for a few times then change them .

Gunman,

Many thanks for clarifying that. So it potentially can damage the pins rather than the springs.

OB

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7 hours ago, Old Boggy said:

Gunman,

Many thanks for clarifying that. So it potentially can damage the pins rather than the springs.

OB

Most likely yes when talking coil spring guns , V springs very slightly higher risk but minimal .

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9 hours ago, Gunman said:

 Dry firing and opening the gun alowwing the ejectors to fly out is as likely to cause the extractor head to break off as a broken striker  . 

 

Can I ask what the difference is between allowing the ejectors to function as normal after dry firing, and the same function with a spent shell or snap cap? 

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When the ejectors trip and eject a cartridge they will have a resistance created by the case . This will in effect offer some resistance . When tripping without a case they are working with maximum force and it is possible that when they are at there fullest extent and come to a sudden stop without the resistance and weight of a case , the inertial effect can cause the extractor head to break  off .

It is not common but it does  happen and I have had it happen in the work shop [as well as strikers which was very embarrassing ]so snap caps , used cases will lessen the chances .

As to snap caps , not wanting to open up the whole debate again , I preferred hollow  aluminium ones with nylon or tuffnol inserts for common use  , I do not like the heavy brass one as I think they can put to much strain on the ejectors , not to mention damage they can do if they hit something  . Traditional plated snap caps found in best gun cases were mostly OK but  in the workshop  they got knocked about too much . So once fired cases ,clean cases with the crimps trimmed were my choice for daily use .

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Hey Guys,

 

Thank you all for all the replies and help.

It worked both by tapping the stock and by switching the barrels. My other O/U gun (Baikal) works differently and that is why I got worried.

I know that firing without a snap cap or a live cartridge isn't good but I wanted to make the firing pins work.

I have ordered a pair of snap caps but haven't arrived yet.

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On 06/02/2021 at 10:02, Fil said:

Winchester triggers are inertia operated. You need to thump the stock when dry firing. Preferably with snap caps. Baikals are mechanical single triggers.

 

 

My Winchester 6500 is mechanical.

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One other comment on Japanese made Winchesters . A not uncommon fault is that due to wear on the cocking "knib" in the forend , the hammers do not lift fully so the sears do not engage at full cock .

Not a difficult job to put right but it does need a certain amount of experience in building up the knib's leading edge and setting the lift timing so it does not over cock ,

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