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Lead shot for live quarry - a five-year transition, not a one-year solution


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See link below for a joint update on the five-year transition towards sustainable ammunition by British Association for Shooting and Conservation, Countryside Alliance, Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust, British Game Alliance, Country Land and Business Association, Moorland Association, National Gamekeepers' Organisation, Scottish Land and Estates, and Game Farmers Association. The joint update includes statements from ammunition manufacturers.

https://basc.org.uk/an-update-on-the-five-year-transition-towards-sustainable-ammunition/

See also link below for a blog by Matt Cross about his experience one year into a five-year transition towards sustainable ammunition.

https://basc.org.uk/a-five-year-transition-not-a-one-year-solution/

For an overview of the science supporting the transition see:

https://www.gwct.org.uk/policy/briefings/lead-ammunition/

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29 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

See link below for a joint update on the five-year transition towards sustainable ammunition by British Association for Shooting and Conservation, Countryside Alliance, Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust, British Game Alliance, Country Land and Business Association, Moorland Association, National Gamekeepers' Organisation, Scottish Land and Estates, and Game Farmers Association. The joint update includes statements from ammunition manufacturers.

https://basc.org.uk/an-update-on-the-five-year-transition-towards-sustainable-ammunition/

See also link below for a blog by Matt Cross about his experience one year into a five-year transition towards sustainable ammunition.

https://basc.org.uk/a-five-year-transition-not-a-one-year-solution/

For an overview of the science supporting the transition see:

https://www.gwct.org.uk/policy/briefings/lead-ammunition/

Connor.. the days of lead are numbered, do you think there is any chance the government would pay compensation to those that own [perhaps] obsolete guns. has there been a similar precedent

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Iread in the Telegraph that some University has been dredging the history books to find a case where lead shot was found in a human body and found one woman who went in for apendix op and they found a few lead shots in it. She was a country lady who ate a lot of pheasnt/partridge over the years, but no indication she had lead poisoning or they would have said so.  Big thing in the article about shooting orgs supposed to be withdrawing lead shot by now and had failed to do so.

A good letter today from a medical man saying that lead poisoning comes from the oxides. Actually swollowing the metal has little if no effect.  that is why the oxides where banned from paint many moons ago.   the reason birds/swans suffered was that they have a gizzard which grinds everything to a paste before absorbing it.

personally I think it is being pushed by the anti brigade as a way of stopping shooting altogether.

Now in my 8th decade and fed shot game from virtually the day I was born and I think I still have most of my marbles but my wife disagrees occasionally:lol:

Edited by Walker570
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23 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Connor.. the days of lead are numbered, do you think there is any chance the government would pay compensation to those that own [perhaps] obsolete guns. has there been a similar precedent

My two pennarth worth opinion, for what it’s worth, based on my experiences as a former handgun owner who was compensated for the seizure of their firearms, is that while the phase out of lead is voluntary, then no, I can’t see why there would be, not even for those guns the phase out renders obsolete. 
If it were a government implemented ban, then yes, there would probably be compensation paid, but only for those guns rendered obsolete by dint of there being no commercially available ammunition. That’s how it was with handguns anyhow. 

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8 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

 

personally I think it is being pushed by the anti brigade as a way of stopping shooting altogether.

 

this is not down to the antis this rubbish would not have got of the ground had it not been for basc and co calling for a ban the blame lies full square with those we paid to represent us who then bite the hand that feeds them by calling for the rubbish 

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2 minutes ago, Scully said:

My two pennarth worth opinion, for what it’s worth, based on my experiences as a former handgun owner who was compensated for the seizure of their firearms, is that while the phase out of lead is voluntary, then no, I can’t see why there would be, not even for those guns the phase out renders obsolete. 
If it were a government implemented ban, then yes, there would probably be compensation paid, but only for those guns rendered obsolete by dint of there being no commercially available ammunition. That’s how it was with handguns anyhow. 

Hmm cheers,  Yes that makes sense, [I suppose.] So make something illegal, yet show there is a replacement, although at many times the cost, would absolve the government from any blame.. nice 

I think theres a market  for decent English guns in America..🤠

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The cartridge manufacturers still have a great deal of work to do. I believe Eley are the only manufacturer making non toxic bio wadded 20bore shell. Everything else in steel seems to be plastic wadded. 
 

I’ll be carrying on with fibre wadded lead until its no longer available or  illegal gal to do so. 

Edited by shalfordninja33
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1 hour ago, clangerman said:

this is not down to the antis this rubbish would not have got of the ground had it not been for basc and co calling for a ban the blame lies full square with those we paid to represent us who then bite the hand that feeds them by calling for the rubbish 

i agree they are sucking up sportsman money but ain't standing by us they agreed to easy to the lead ban and they are doing it again with rifle ammo maybe if everyone stopped paying them they would change their minds

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look guys, birds and humans are different. 
lead shot is toxic to birds. full stop. its been we reported for decades. 

comparing  Mrs Goggins who ate pheasant with the vicar, to birds who ingest lead shot is not doing anyone any favors. 

2 different species. react differently to any lead source. 

 

unless the bio wads get better or cheaper. it wont transition. 

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41 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, I have never seen any surveys or information if lead mains water pipe has had any detrimental effect on humans and it is still in use today in 10s of 1000s  of properties across the UK

Having grown up in a house with lead pipes as many of us did, this is just bunkham(as my grandad  used to say).  House still standing, changed to copper inside, lead still outside. No body died of anything lead related.

Its a shame BASC no longer represent shooters as I'm sure it did some good in the past. But its now got a shelf life just like they gave lead.

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Harsh crowd.

Does everyone think the Government would not have tried to ban lead sooner if it was not for the voluntary ban?

31 minutes ago, Scully said:

‘Live quarry’? I thought it was ‘game’?🤔🙂

Does 'live quarry' not also include pest species, pigeons etc?

Edited by Windswept
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2 hours ago, cookoff013 said:

look guys, birds and humans are different. 
lead shot is toxic to birds. full stop. its been we reported for decades. 

comparing  Mrs Goggins who ate pheasant with the vicar, to birds who ingest lead shot is not doing anyone any favors. 

2 different species. react differently to any lead source. 

 

unless the bio wads get better or cheaper. it wont transition. 

years ago they tried feeding mallard ducks lead pellets mixed in corn to prove  it would give them lead poisoning it did not work 

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16 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

years ago they tried feeding mallard ducks lead pellets mixed in corn to prove  it would give them lead poisoning it did not work 

There are also reports of birds being reared on land that has been used for shooting and contains alot of shot. poisoned alot of birds. 
lead is very toxic to birds.

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Hi Cookoff013 “lead shot is toxic to birds “ this is the problem as you say full stop. Why don’t falconers take lead shot pigeons. Why don’t we use lead on wildfowl. Wildflowers don’t use lead, they just get on with it. Some years back at an international clay pigeon competition before they were allowed to shoot nets were laid out to collect the spent shot, maybe Webber would know about it. Changing from lead is about wildlife and the environment, lead in game bird’s is between the market place and the consumer. It’s better for shooters and shooting organisations to stop using lead for environmental reasons than to stop because the market place stops it. About five years ago BASC magazine printed an article about lead shot in wildfowl purchased from game dealers. I think seventy percent of the birds contained lead pellets. Could l ask Conor did BASC do the study or who did. Thanks. When wiildfowlers stopped using lead we sorted ourselves out and got on with it. We have companies making complete bio cartridges it’s not like we have to start from scratch.

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Looking at it a different way, I think lead was going weather voluntarily or by a ban so why not start pushing the shooting orgs to put our money where their mouth is and try and sort out the development and supply of alternatives.

I couldn't find bio cartridges of and make when I tried a few months ago! A couple of gun shops said they would not stock it because if it started to break down well they had it then they sold it and something went wrong they would be on the hook, they would order it but that ment a delivery charge unless they were doing a stock order. Might be ok for a clay or pigeon load where you might order 1000 +, not so great if you just want a couple of boxes for a game day.

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Just my 2 pennies worth. 

I really do believe the time has come reduce and phase out lead shot used in game shooting. I'm not personally concerned about eating a pheasant with a few lead shot in it, but what I do find concerning, is what must be the vast amounts of lead shot that contaminates the ground in and around gun pegs. On whichever side of the argument one stands, this amount of lead, year on year, being spread on the ground just can't be defended. 

For the serious game shot, the increased cost of lead substitute cartridges or a new gun is insignificant when compared to the cost of a seasons shooting.

We bleat on about how much benefit game shooting brings to the environment, yet continue to argue that dumping lorry loads of lead in the countryside is justified.

I for one am pleased that the likes of the CA and BASC are driving this agenda forward.

 

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8 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

Just my 2 pennies worth. 

I really do believe the time has come reduce and phase out lead shot used in game shooting. I'm not personally concerned about eating a pheasant with a few lead shot in it, but what I do find concerning, is what must be the vast amounts of lead shot that contaminates the ground in and around gun pegs. On whichever side of the argument one stands, this amount of lead, year on year, being spread on the ground just can't be defended. 

For the serious game shot, the increased cost of lead substitute cartridges or a new gun is insignificant when compared to the cost of a seasons shooting.

We bleat on about how much benefit game shooting brings to the environment, yet continue to argue that dumping lorry loads of lead in the countryside is justified.

I for one am pleased that the likes of the CA and BASC are driving this agenda forward.

 

I agree that some of this lead shot is theoretically ingestible by terrestrial fauna. However actual evidence of impact is scant to say the least. Also, over time, lead pellets (and other heavy metals) generally descend through the soil strata, where they cease to become bio-available. The idea that we have ‘year-on-year’ surface tonnages of shot building up, is not an accurate depiction. Also, there are many soils where lead occurs naturally anyway - so where does that leave us?

I completely understand the lead concern as it can be a potent neurotoxin, however it is only bioavailable in certain forms and circumstances. When, how, why, what? There are two many questions and not enough answers. That is why we need high quality robust data - good research is urgently required. If impacts are proven, I would then be willingly guided by evidence, rather than by a ‘pseudo-eco press gang’ using panic power to attack shooting. 

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When you take into account the hundreds of tons of lead shot fired into the countryside over just the last 120yrs and then ally that with the supposed damage it will do, we really should be totally devoid of birds and predators eating birds AND a huge number of the human population in the first 60 of those years .  The statisticts do not stand up.

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