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Lead shot for live quarry - a five-year transition, not a one-year solution


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Wymberley,

Your comments re tungsten are interesting. Concentrated tungsten alloys are ballistically  better than lead. When ‘heavy shot’ was first available in the UK, I remember it killing wigeon on the foreshore at silly ranges (when I could hit them that is....?!). The problem currently however is that over 80% of the world’s tungsten comes from China - and they have decided not to sell the mineral ore. Instead they are ‘adding value’ i.e. selling finished products. The shot is phenomenally expensive. This isn’t helped by the USA forcing up prices by stock piling tungsten for potential future military use.

Does anyone know of an old disused tungsten mine for sale?

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4 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Hear what you are saying but now the shooting organisations have aligned themselves with the ban lead shot campaign for live quarry shooting.
At the end of the five year transition away from lead shot it will be untenable to continue to use lead shot and non biodegradable wads. So sadly the expectation will be if you cannot afford to use such cartridges then you should not shoot live quarry.
Fingers crossed prices do come down to that which we can all afford and not just big day game shooters.

 

 

On the upside gamebore standard steel will go through all my old sxs's at a push 

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I do have to wonder about what the Chinese are upto? How come that they can dominate so many industries with shoddy substandard products ? Oh! I see . Greedy profit led European managed businesses who happily bring their own Country into recession and labour redundancies to line their own wallets.

Steel industry is a prime example we sold out to China & India  but they still rely on our skill and technology to make the product.

Historically it is recorded that many Wars were won by laying siege to the enemy. Is it not about time we made China suffer from the same fate to bring back some sensibility to World trade? If I don't buy their products and there is no demand the price should come down?

Back on the non toxic trail why is Bismuth so expensive in shotshell manufacture whilst the same material is readily available and used in the manufacture of ladies face powder?????

 

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29 minutes ago, Salopian said:

I do have to wonder about what the Chinese are upto? How come that they can dominate so many industries with shoddy substandard products ? Oh! I see . Greedy profit led European managed businesses who happily bring their own Country into recession and labour redundancies to line their own wallets.

Steel industry is a prime example we sold out to China & India  but they still rely on our skill and technology to make the product.

Historically it is recorded that many Wars were won by laying siege to the enemy. Is it not about time we made China suffer from the same fate to bring back some sensibility to World trade? If I don't buy their products and there is no demand the price should come down?

Back on the non toxic trail why is Bismuth so expensive in shotshell manufacture whilst the same material is readily available and used in the manufacture of ladies face powder?????

 

Bismuth tends mainly to occur as a byproduct from refining lead, gold and copper etc. Its supply is therefore quite limited - hence the high price. The commodity price fluctuates between about £25 to £28 per KG. Then transport and processing in to pellets......?! You can see where this is going..... expensive!

We need a metals boffin (that excludes me) to blend some elements - and come up with something more dense than steel. It doesn’t need to be up to lead densities, just somewhere between steel and lead would do.......also inexpensive. Anyone out there???

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31 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Bismuth tends mainly to occur as a byproduct from refining lead, gold and copper etc. Its supply is therefore quite limited - hence the high price. The commodity price fluctuates between about £25 to £28 per KG. Then transport and processing in to pellets......?! You can see where this is going..... expensive!

We need a metals boffin (that excludes me) to blend some elements - and come up with something more dense than steel. It doesn’t need to be up to lead densities, just somewhere between steel and lead would do.......also inexpensive. Anyone out there???

Both bismuth and tungsten are rare earth metal and hence expensive.

as for a new blend good luck with that it took the universe billion of years inside stars to create the heavy metals, lead is the final state of depleted uranium with a half life of 4.5 billion years.

 

 

Edited by rbrowning2
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9 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Both bismuth and tungsten are rare earth metal and hence expensive.

as for a new blend good luck with that it took the universe billion of years inside stars to create the heavy metals, lead is the final state of depleted uranium with a half life of 4.5 billion years.

 

 

Not rare - just expensive to extract. Pre smelted lead can contain as much as 10% bismuth. 

Further, I am not suggesting that we wait for the cosmos to deliver our new shot......?!

I would ideally prefer it if some ‘earthlings’ were able to blend some heavier available elements - to produce decent shot. Call me optimistic if you like. 

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"I would ideally prefer it if some ‘earthlings’ were able to blend some heavier available elements - to produce decent shot. Call me optimistic if you like. "

Or just wonder off and play with their Lego and leave us sportsmen to enjoy our sport like our ancestors have done for a few hundred years  before us .

Sidenote :- I never had these issues when I was a member of WAGBI ! 

Instead of banning the use of Lead , how about banning membership of BASC and other 'Green '  misguided institutions . Is Greta Thornberg a BASC Director ?😂

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1 hour ago, Salopian said:

"I would ideally prefer it if some ‘earthlings’ were able to blend some heavier available elements - to produce decent shot. Call me optimistic if you like. "

Or just wonder off and play with their Lego and leave us sportsmen to enjoy our sport like our ancestors have done for a few hundred years  before us .

Sidenote :- I never had these issues when I was a member of WAGBI ! 

Instead of banning the use of Lead , how about banning membership of BASC and other 'Green '  misguided institutions . Is Greta Thornberg a BASC Director ?😂

Salopian, I share your wishes re having the freedom of our ancestors. However I hope the experts don’t play with lego - or we’ll be stuck with steel. We are where we are - and need an innovative solution. As an aside, I noticed that Rottweil have a pure copper shot which is heavier than steel - expensive though. Its encouraging to see some developments all the same. 

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2 hours ago, Salopian said:

 

Instead of banning the use of Lead , how about banning membership of BASC and other 'Green '  misguided institutions . Is Greta Thornberg a BASC Director ?😂

excellent suggestion they couldn’t sell us out any worse if grotty greta was in charge 

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On 02/03/2021 at 11:51, clangerman said:

when the ban has been and gone your children will still be drinking water from lead pipes which just shows the motives of those pushing this rubbish are neither health or the environment 

My son, who lives in Scotland, discovered while digging that the pipe connecting his house water supply to the water main under the street seemed to be made of  lead. He emailed a special lead alert number for the water company, who said it was a very serious matter if it was indeed a lead pipe. He got an immediate response and the water company ordered him to use bottled water only. They turned up the next day, established that it was a lead pipe, and left with water samples from an indoor tap. Within three days they had dug up the road and replaced the lead pipe - all at their own expense.

Edited by stagboy
typo
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The Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust (GWCT) is currently running a short, anonymous survey on your experience of using lead ammunition alternatives and any barriers you have found towards using non-lead ammunition.

Please take part, sign up to the GWCT newsletter and support GWCT as a member. Click the link below to find out more and to have your say.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/news/news/2021/march/shotgun-users-urged-to-share-their-views-on-the-alternatives-to-lead/
 

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Thank you Conor for the link , interestingly I have just logged on and have been informed that I have already completed the survey????????? Without touching my keyboard . Yet another flawed survey!

Can we get back to sanity as soon as possible . There is at the moment no readily available , economically priced, efficient , alternative to Lead .Until such time as the Law in the UK bans Lead can we concentrate our efforts on doing away with plastic ? 

I already and have for many years shot fibre wad cartridges and do not feel at all disadvantaged by using them compared with a plastic wadded cartridge .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Two questions 

it’s not much of a survey 🤔

Especially on a forum principle for pigeon shooters, or did I miss that question?

looks more like a poor attempt to collect email addresses under the excuse of a survey.

 

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Quote:-'A report published last week found that 179 out of 180 tested had been shot using Lead shot.'

So exactly what is the point that you are trying to make?

The birds may have been shot with Lead shot because the Gun realised the limitations of alternative shot at the range he was shooting at !

Talking of surveys it would be interesting to see the percentages of lead users versus steel conducted in a survey of Pigeon, Pheasnt / Gamebirds & Clayshooters .

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31 minutes ago, Salopian said:

Quote:-'A report published last week found that 179 out of 180 tested had been shot using Lead shot.'

So exactly what is the point that you are trying to make?

The birds may have been shot with Lead shot because the Gun realised the limitations of alternative shot at the range he was shooting at !

Talking of surveys it would be interesting to see the percentages of lead users versus steel conducted in a survey of Pigeon, Pheasnt / Gamebirds & Clayshooters .

‘So what?’ was exactly my response to the BBC news article. It isn’t illegal to use lead shot for live quarry, so I’m puzzled at to what they were expecting. 
If there is to be a phase out of lead ( voluntary or otherwise, implying at some point a complete ban ) then why on Earth would shooters choose an alternative while lead is still available? 
I seriously doubt if they conduct similar tests on shot quarry at the end of next season, they will find any marked difference. Why would they? 

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Throughout this I have remained fairly neutral on BASC's stance re.lead shot but reading the current BASC magazine the sheer unadulterated joy over steel shot doesn't sit well with me. Bill Harriman states he is delighted he no longer has to throw a deadly poison all over the countryside! Several times it states the ban is for environmental reasons amongst others. If that is the case, what does it matter what it was fired at? That is the stance WJ will take and an all out ban will ensue.

What are the current plas/lead free alternatives for clay shooting? Eley Eco wads at £330 a thou. To me, the life blood of all shotgun shooting is the smaller sunday fibre wad shoots. The working class lads who attend these shoots will effectively be priced out of the sport and younger generations lost. Making an already niche sport even less popular.

Can you imagine the big flush shoots or sim days with eco wads. We'd be knee deep in them. Degradable or not. They won't sit well with farmers.

The associations are treading very dodgy ground and a dangerous precedent is about to be set.

WR. 

 

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25 minutes ago, White Rabbit said:

Throughout this I have remained fairly neutral on BASC's stance re.lead shot but reading the current BASC magazine the sheer unadulterated joy over steel shot doesn't sit well with me. Bill Harriman states he is delighted he no longer has to throw a deadly poison all over the countryside! Several times it states the ban is for environmental reasons amongst others. If that is the case, what does it matter what it was fired at? That is the stance WJ will take and an all out ban will ensue 

 

as the water we drink comes from lead pipes if bill harriman does not feel a fool he should do if their new cry of toxic toxic  is to be believed (none are that foolish!) their main concern should be the health of our children not a bit of shot so don’t drink the water strip your roofs it’s toxic i tell you toxic lol 

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Not sure that many people still have water from lead pipe, they stopped using lead over 50 years ago. All new houses have plastic and copper , and have for many many years so not a reasonable argument when compared to shooting. We run a small clay shoot that has been on the same site for about 30 years, about 25 shoots per year with 30 guns each shooting 50oz per shoot ie 2350lbs of lead a year over a small area.

If it was my land I would not want it

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