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Lead shot for live quarry - a five-year transition, not a one-year solution


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12 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Why didn't they suggest that anything entering the commercial food chain is shot with steel or whatever non tox.  As opposed to an outright ban on all live quarry. I can't see much point in shooting crows with non toxic shot as no one eats them, and as for any game I've shot I'm not going to worry about lead too much either.

After shotguns it will no doubt creep to airguns.  

Next you'll be suggesting they thought the whole thing through, damned poor show!

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2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

What use is a stockpile if/ when it is banned? 
 

The point of a stockpile is to carry on using it after its been banned. As some have said ‘who’s going to know?’ 

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47 minutes ago, Scully said:

The point of a stockpile is to carry on using it after its been banned. As some have said ‘who’s going to know?’ 

That’s a matter for your conscience 

 And when you run out you will be so far behind will it be possible to catch up 

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46 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

That’s a matter for your conscience 

 And when you run out you will be so far behind will it be possible to catch up 

I already use steel, and have been doing so for years, but I still use lead for the majority of my shooting. 
There are many shooters who will stockpile lead for whatever reason, but if some continue to use it after its been banned for live quarry, who is going to know?
It isn’t going to be banned for trap ( yet ) so it’s not like it won’t be available.
Let’s face it, there is a lot of non compliance regarding the shooting of fowl with steel, but how many have been prosecuted? 

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3 hours ago, GingerCat said:

Why didn't they suggest that anything entering the commercial food chain is shot with steel or whatever non tox.  As opposed to an outright ban on all live quarry. I can't see much point in shooting crows with non toxic shot as no one eats them, and as for any game I've shot I'm not going to worry about lead too much either.

After shotguns it will no doubt creep to airguns.  

I think some of the shift is a concern about carrion feeders and BOP being poisoned.

21 minutes ago, Scully said:

I already use steel, and have been doing so for years, but I still use lead for the majority of my shooting. 
There are many shooters who will stockpile lead for whatever reason, but if some continue to use it after its been banned for live quarry, who is going to know?
It isn’t going to be banned for trap ( yet ) so it’s not like it won’t be available.
Let’s face it, there is a lot of non compliance regarding the shooting of fowl with steel, but how many have been prosecuted? 

Do you worry that continuing to use lead will be paraded by opposing bodies to hasten shootings demise?  Do you perhaps think that being a renegade endangers shooting for all? How do you feel about people who continue to shoot and persecute raptors? 

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33 minutes ago, PPP said:

 

Do you worry that continuing to use lead will be paraded by opposing bodies to hasten shootings demise?

Not really. I think the use of lead will be used to do exactly that, but I don't worry about it. I think the demise of shooting in the UK is inevitable; probably not in my lifetime, but it's coming. We've never had the cultural tradition of hunting in the UK as other european countries have, and we've lost the tradition of competitive target shooting we were famous for around a hundred years ago.  We're a soft minority target for those who oppose us. It's not like we're going to riot is it? 

 Do you perhaps think that being a renegade endangers shooting for all?

I'm not a renegade; I stockpile lead because the lead phase out is voluntary, not compulsory, but if the manufacturers cease making the load I like, due to a drop in demand, then I want to have plenty left. I've already started my stockpiling.  I haven't decided yet whether I would comply or not with an outright ban on lead shot; I have always believed bad, unjust and illogical law deserves non compliance. Like I've said, who is going to know? 

How do you feel about people who continue to shoot and persecute raptors? 

I can understand why some do it, but if it's a bit like shooting oneself in the foot. Raptors don't do half the damage it is claimed they do, and losses by any source are factored in by any well run shoot.

 

 

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On 14/03/2021 at 15:11, clangerman said:

have a large stock pile of lead if you wish to look a fool ask a room if they are more concerned about the lead or the large piece of plastic it comes in and the plastic case it’s fired from if birds were dying from ingesting lead we would be knee deep in bodies and all would be extinct by now as for basc and co this rubbish came from basc from the amount voting with their feet the other orgs won’t rush to join ideas from basc again any fool who’s calls for a ban affects MY shooting so will hear about it like it or not 

So no answer to any of the points then ? 

 

As i expected.

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Just how many Raptors have died through eating carrion that have been shot with lead then  ?

The anti lead brigade seem totally unable to show any proof of just how lethal lead is to ANY other birds. I keep hearing of all these birds dying from lead poisoning, all I ask is SHOW ME    !

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50,000 to 100,000 wildfowl deaths per annum due to Lead ingestion.Where?It is all very well publishing figures but where is the evidence? This has been mentioned for years but never shown .

Surely since the non toxic ammunition imposition for wildfowling the numbers must have gone up, but I'm not seeing larger numbers of Ducks , Geese or Swans.

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On 23/03/2021 at 10:05, clangerman said:

he is spot on and how did we get here? BASC! it’s like paying to shoot your self up the backside  

The Danish shooters proactively got rid of lead years ago, and have actually lobbied to get rid of plastic wads within the next three years. Thanks heavens the UK shooting orgs collectively took the decision to start removing our own head from the noose a year ago. Everybody could see how the legislation was going to go over the next few years, whether originating in the EU or UK. The direction of travel was clear. Just imagine the panic we'd be in right now if UK shooters hadn't already started a voluntary transition, and the manufacturers ditto.  We'd have been caught on the hop, as would the cart makers, and we would be seen as desperately trying to defend the indefensible. The antis would have had a field day. 

Edited by stagboy
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On 14/03/2021 at 19:45, Scully said:

I already use steel, and have been doing so for years, but I still use lead for the majority of my shooting. 
There are many shooters who will stockpile lead for whatever reason, but if some continue to use it after its been banned for live quarry, who is going to know?
It isn’t going to be banned for trap ( yet ) so it’s not like it won’t be available.
Let’s face it, there is a lot of non compliance regarding the shooting of fowl with steel, but how many have been prosecuted? 

The non compliance with shooting fowl is down to driven ducks on commercial shoots who care not what happens, wildfowlers on the shore will be 100% compliant near enough. 

As ever commercial shoots will be the end of us

 

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51 minutes ago, grahamch said:

The non compliance with shooting fowl is down to driven ducks on commercial shoots who care not what happens, wildfowlers on the shore will be 100% compliant near enough. 

As ever commercial shoots will be the end of us

 

I’m assuming you have first hand experience of this regarding commercial shooting, as I don’t know of any commercial shoots around here which have duck drives. I know of quite a few driven shoots ( just like yours and mine ) and walked up rough shoots which shoot fowl as well as game, but none of them are commercial. 

 

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4 hours ago, Scully said:

I’m assuming you have first hand experience of this regarding commercial shooting, as I don’t know of any commercial shoots around here which have duck drives. I know of quite a few driven shoots ( just like yours and mine ) and walked up rough shoots which shoot fowl as well as game, but none of them are commercial. 

 

Have been on a few let days where use of lead on duck drives was seen as normal. DEFRA have also done work analysing ducks at game dealers which carried lead and fowlers normally do not shoot enough duck to sell them.

 

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26 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Have been on a few let days where use of lead on duck drives was seen as normal. DEFRA have also done work analysing ducks at game dealers which carried lead and fowlers normally do not shoot enough duck to sell them.

 

So you just went along with the blatant disregard for legislation, but are quite willing to take the high moral ground now as it fits your dislike of commercial shooting?
I find it quite strange that you’ve ‘been on a few let days’ given your criticism of them. 🤔
I’m aware of what DEFRA have done, and continue to do. I seem to recall there was debate as to whether the fowl tested were shot in England or Scotland, but I could be wrong. It matters little to me. 
I’m assuming by your comments that there isn’t such a thing as commercial fowl shooting?  Do goose guides do it for free? 

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45 minutes ago, grahamch said:

No l used either 32g no 5 ITM or ITM as l use on the foreshore and was told that it was unneeded. 

I was reffering to proper fowling on the foreshore

Good for you. I’m assuming you told them they were breaking the law. 
I don’t know what ‘proper’ fowling is, as opposed to improper fowling.  Punt gunning? What is the difference between commercial fowling and proper fowling, or driven shooting and commercial driven shooting? 

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10 hours ago, Salopian said:

50,000 to 100,000 wildfowl deaths per annum due to Lead ingestion.Where?It is all very well publishing figures but where is the evidence? This has been mentioned for years but never shown .

Surely since the non toxic ammunition imposition for wildfowling the numbers must have gone up, but I'm not seeing larger numbers of Ducks , Geese or Swans.

THAT is because they evaporate too  !

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37 minutes ago, Scully said:

Good for you. I’m assuming you told them they were breaking the law. 
I don’t know what ‘proper’ fowling is, as opposed to improper fowling.  Punt gunning? What is the difference between commercial fowling and proper fowling, or driven shooting and commercial driven shooting? 

proper wildfowling is on the foreshore rather than inland goose shooting which is paid for, however the sale of geese other than in Orkney is illegal. 

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1 minute ago, grahamch said:

proper wildfowling is on the foreshore rather than inland goose shooting which is paid for, however the sale of geese other than in Orkney is illegal. 

So do they not have goose guides on the Solway? I was thinking more of the guides being paid rather than the geese being sold.

So what is the difference between proper fowling and commercial fowling? Aren’t birds still being killed for sport? 

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