wymberley Posted March 7, 2021 Report Share Posted March 7, 2021 As most - if not all - will recognise this and as I had the figures at hand I thought I'd post in case anyone else is interested. My body and my shoulders in particular are falling to bits and I can on occasion have trouble mounting the shotgun. Although recoil is not and never has been a problem for me, it would be silly to ignore the possibility when already I can have trouble moving my arms shotgun fashion. Consequently, I thought I'd have a look and check that what ammo/gun I'm now using is heading in the right direction by comparing it with a known acceptable level. The given ratio is based on - or equates to - an MV of 1350 ( or the old OV of 1070 ft/sec), a 1&1/16 oz load and a 6lb 6oz gun which would have been a norm back along. It turns out it was worth doing as although the 12 bore load is better all around, the 20 load because of the gun's weight could do with a slower load if I can find one as the recoil velocity is a tad brisk. A heavier gun is not an option as it would defeat the objective The figures all relate to the muzzle: Recoil Velocity = 15.3 ft/sec Recoil Energy = 22.9 ftlbs Momentum = 13.4 Ns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itchy trigger Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 shooting a lightweight side by side one would surely be using 1oz 'impax' type cartridges, that is what they were made for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 19 minutes ago, itchy trigger said: shooting a lightweight side by side one would surely be using 1oz 'impax' type cartridges, that is what they were made for Certainly would. Fortunately, Super Game Hi Bird is more impax than Impax but far less in price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkfanz Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 why not just stick to 25gram in 20g,thats all i reload,i find it it ok in my 6lb 3oz lanber,i rarely use 12g now and they will be sold off when lockdown ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Wimbers, sorry old boy. I think the 96:1 is redundant now. Nitro powder is way more efficient. If one really wanted half decent comfortable loads then anything 1100fps, ot 1050mv is in order. The standard 1200fps was the maximum and with big loads. Even 3/4oz is able to be shot efficient enough at 1050fps. Thats soft shooting. Any softer youd just be shouting at birds. On birds soft loads are usable at soft easy targets with shotsize selection. I prefer big slow loads, less sting and there is shot there, undoubtedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 33 minutes ago, cookoff013 said: Wimbers, sorry old boy. I think the 96:1 is redundant now. Nitro powder is way more efficient. If one really wanted half decent comfortable loads then anything 1100fps, ot 1050mv is in order. The standard 1200fps was the maximum and with big loads. Even 3/4oz is able to be shot efficient enough at 1050fps. Thats soft shooting. Any softer youd just be shouting at birds. On birds soft loads are usable at soft easy targets with shotsize selection. I prefer big slow loads, less sting and there is shot there, undoubtedly. Apart from the fact that I've now stocked up - with the possible exception of some more 20b perhaps - it's not me that you need to convince that quick is not always necessarily the dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 1 hour ago, hawkfanz said: why not just stick to 25gram in 20g,thats all i reload,i find it it ok in my 6lb 3oz lanber,i rarely use 12g now and they will be sold off when lockdown ends. I hear you. Your Lanber weighs just a whisper more than my 12 bore which on and off I've been looking for for some 40 years so I'm going to enjoy it while/when I can - not to mention a couple of thousand + cartridges which I already had when I got it and which are ideally suited. I will use the 20 (if it's possible) on days when I can't manage the 12 and perhaps eventually switch over permanently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) Yes, it is Greener's (or at least he wrote of it in his large book) formula for the ideal weight of a gun for each given weight of shot in a cartridge. But I think that there are other factors and, I assume as Greener was a true gunmaker, that it starts off with a gun that fits correctly and has a good shape and dimension of stock. I have shot guns that were unpleasant...the worst ever was an air rifle believe it or not an FAC Webley Patriot in .22 it was like going a round with Mike Tyson just every shot a punch in the cheek...and others a .470 H & H double sidelock ejector that had a recoil that was similar to that of a 20 bore side by side firing 1 ounce loads. Stock fit, shape and dimensions also affect felt recoil. From personal long experience shooting more than a mere ten or a dozen Mk VII through .303 Enfield rifles with "short" or standard length stocks would always give me a bruised shoulder. Shoot three hundred rounds in a day through the same rifles but with "long" stocks you never even got one a mark. Greener advised I think: 1 Ounce = 6 lbs gun 1 1/16 Ounce = 6 lbs 6 ounce gun 1 1/8 Ounce = 6 lbs 12 ounce gun My maths may be "out" but that last 6 lbs 12 oz weights do pretty much correspond with weights (with standard length straight hand stock) of most "best" makers' sidelock double 12s from the 1900s to the 1920s. Edited March 13, 2021 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, enfieldspares said: Yes, it is Greener's (or at least he wrote of it in his large book) formula for the ideal weight of a gun for each given weight of shot in a cartridge. But I think that there are other factors and, I assume as Greener was a true gunmaker, that it starts off with a gun that fits correctly and has a good shape and dimension of stock. I have shot guns that were unpleasant...the worst ever was an air rifle believe it or not an FAC Webley Patriot in .22 it was like going a round with Mike Tyson just every shot a punch in the cheek...and others a .470 H & H double sidelock ejector that had a recoil that was similar to that of a 20 bore side by side firing 1 ounce loads. Stock fit, shape and dimensions also affect felt recoil. From personal long experience shooting more than a mere ten or a dozen .303 Enfield rifles with "short" or standard length stocks would always give me a bruised shoulder. Shoot three hundred rounds in a day through the same rifles but with "long" stocks you never even got one a mark. Pretty much agree with this. I have used a .470 Nitro Express and a .416 Rigby and not noticed any recoil. I used a .375 H&H Magnum for many years and never felt any recoil, seeing every animal go down in the scope. But the worst recoil I ever felt was when some kind person gave me a box of 1 ounce 20 gauge Winchester AA Trap loads. I had a 5 1/2 lb. AYA No.3 at the time and I fired just two before I gave the rest of the box away. Interesting about the Patriot, but I have heard it mentioned before and put it down to snowflakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 16 minutes ago, London Best said: Interesting about the Patriot, but I have heard it mentioned before and put it down to snowflakes. Oh no. It was truly, really, bloomin' awful. Nasty. Like being punched in the face. And worst the accuracy compared to even a well used £10 BSA Model 1 .22LR was abysmal. Couldn't even get it to hold an inch at twenty-five yards even when shot and held correctly from bagged rests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 It's 55 years since I shot a 303 and have never shot the other big game rifles mentioned. One point though, would you ever fire, say, 200 rounds at a sitting? That might just make a difference. The 96:1 specifically may be dated, but as far as I know no one has yet to come up with a current version. The criteria for deducing the three aspects that I gave are: weight of the gun, weight of the load, weight of the powder, weight of the wads (ie, the total weight of the ejecta), velocity of the ejecta and gravity. All of these factors remain applicable today and as there has been no change, surely this remains as a fairly reliable guide which is only what it ever was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 4 hours ago, enfieldspares said: Yes, it is Greener's (or at least he wrote of it in his large book) formula for the ideal weight of a gun for each given weight of shot in a cartridge. But I think that there are other factors and, I assume as Greener was a true gunmaker, that it starts off with a gun that fits correctly and has a good shape and dimension of stock. I have shot guns that were unpleasant...the worst ever was an air rifle believe it or not an FAC Webley Patriot in .22 it was like going a round with Mike Tyson just every shot a punch in the cheek...and others a .470 H & H double sidelock ejector that had a recoil that was similar to that of a 20 bore side by side firing 1 ounce loads. Stock fit, shape and dimensions also affect felt recoil. From personal long experience shooting more than a mere ten or a dozen Mk VII through .303 Enfield rifles with "short" or standard length stocks would always give me a bruised shoulder. Shoot three hundred rounds in a day through the same rifles but with "long" stocks you never even got one a mark. Greener advised I think: 1 Ounce = 6 lbs gun 1 1/16 Ounce = 6 lbs 6 ounce gun 1 1/8 Ounce = 6 lbs 12 ounce gun My maths may be "out" but that last 6 lbs 12 oz weights do pretty much correspond with weights (with standard length straight hand stock) of most "best" makers' sidelock double 12s from the 1900s to the 1920s. There is a lot that can be done with powder charges as well. Back in Greener's day shotguns were either loaded with black powder or black powder substitutes such as Shultz or Smokeless Diamond. Both incredibly soft shooting compared with modern powders. Even the old Grand Prix cartridges of the 1970s was a very different cartridge, loaded I believe with Nobel 80 in those days but apparent recoil was much smoother Probably the best gentle powder today would be unique Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 25 minutes ago, Vince Green said: There is a lot that can be done with powder charges as well. Back in Greener's day shotguns were either loaded with black powder or black powder substitutes such as Shultz or Smokeless Diamond. Both incredibly soft shooting compared with modern powders. Even the old Grand Prix cartridges of the 1970s was a very different cartridge, loaded I believe with Nobel 80 in those days but apparent recoil was much smoother Probably the best gentle powder today would be unique Not by a longshot. Powders like extralite, ba10, ns24 and winlite probably trailboss too. All give low speeds to an ounce of lead. There is no such thing as a gentle powder, they all need to be burned up. You cant hurt powder. Parts of recoil are payload and energy applied. Big slow loafs are smoother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 8 minutes ago, cookoff013 said: Not by a longshot. Powders like extralite, ba10, ns24 and winlite probably trailboss too. All give low speeds to an ounce of lead. There is no such thing as a gentle powder, they all need to be burned up. You cant hurt powder. Parts of recoil are payload and energy applied. Big slow loafs are smoother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 96:1 works fine with traditional loadings as said but a lot of modern loads really need a bit more weight to shoot comfortably I think,being developed principally for the O/U market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 56 minutes ago, matone said: 96:1 works fine with traditional loadings as said but a lot of modern loads really need a bit more weight to shoot comfortably I think, being developed principally for the O/U market. Absolutely. Which is why I posted really. The arithmetic is simple so you can soon see if you're over egging things. I've just had to hand back a gun which most of us would have coveted - I did - which never mind swinging it - no chance, - it was painful lifting it from the cabinet on a bad day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted April 1, 2021 Report Share Posted April 1, 2021 On 09/03/2021 at 12:20, wymberley said: Certainly would. Fortunately, Super Game Hi Bird is more impax than Impax but far less in price. Is that the 28g 6/7’s? Are the 30/32g 5/6’s worth a go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2021 7 hours ago, Lloyd90 said: Is that the 28g 6/7’s? Are the 30/32g 5/6’s worth a go? Yes. I don't know but can't think of any reason why not. I was only looking for 7s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted April 1, 2021 Report Share Posted April 1, 2021 4 hours ago, wymberley said: Yes. I don't know but can't think of any reason why not. I was only looking for 7s. Yes they’re the 28g 7’s or yes the 30/32g 5/6’s are worth a go? Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2021 51 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: Yes they’re the 28g 7’s or yes the 30/32g 5/6’s are worth a go? Lol First answer to first question. Second answer to second question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted April 1, 2021 Report Share Posted April 1, 2021 1 minute ago, wymberley said: First answer to first question. Second answer to second question. 👍🏻👍🏻🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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