Police & Crime Commissioners

[lord_seagrave]

Hi chaps, apologies for the radio silence of late. All OK, btw.

I am not a ranter, but, I’ve just had polling cards through for the PCC election.

Having had a look, the average salary for this position is nearly £100k, with average offices of 10 salaried staff.

If any of the candidates truly cared about policing, they would get real jobs and donate their salaries and budgets to fund police officers and crime investigation/prevention (although, I dare say the Chief Constable would probably spend it on new flags for HQ and dancing lessons for Bobbies >shrugs<). Many of the candidates are ex-coppers/specials, so they surely understand that the police just want to get on with the Job?
 

Turnout for PCC elections is some of the lowest recorded. Factor in the costs of holding the elections themselves, and I cannot understand how these roles can be justified.

LS

[dead eye alan]

Job for the boys, waste of funds policeing is at an all time low.

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, lord_seagrave said:

Hi chaps, apologies for the radio silence of late. All OK, btw.

I am not a ranter, but, I’ve just had polling cards through for the PCC election.

Having had a look, the average salary for this position is nearly £100k, with average offices of 10 salaried staff.

If any of the candidates truly cared about policing, they would get real jobs and donate their salaries and budgets to fund police officers and crime investigation/prevention (although, I dare say the Chief Constable would probably spend it on new flags for HQ and dancing lessons for Bobbies >shrugs<). Many of the candidates are ex-coppers/specials, so they surely understand that the police just want to get on with the Job?
 

Turnout for PCC elections is some of the lowest recorded. Factor in the costs of holding the elections themselves, and I cannot understand how these roles can be justified.

LS

The trouble with low turnouts is that it gives the looney left a chance to take advantage of their postal voting scams and vote one of their cronies into the job

[udderlyoffroad]

3 hours ago, lord_seagrave said:

If any of the candidates truly cared about policing, they would get real jobs and donate their salaries and budgets to fund police officers and crime investigation/prevention

The police are not a charity!  You do not 'donate' to them - better known as bribery.   They are civil servants in uniform, paid to uphold the law and keep the Queen's peace.

 

I actually agree with the idea of a PCC ; I.e. removing the idea of a chief constable (comissioner in the met's case) as a political appointee.

Just need someone with testicular fortitude to run for office, and joe public to give a toss.  Which, in light of recent events in Bristol they just might start to do.

As it goes, I've just had my poll card through for the Avon and Somerset PCC candidates.  Will have a gander after work.

 

[lord_seagrave]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

The police are not a charity!  You do not 'donate' to them...

 

My point is that PCCs are paid for by the Treasury, and that all the money that is wasted in these pointless elections and on the PCCs and their staff could be far better spent on actual police officers.

I do not think that PCCs know more about policing priorities than the police themselves. Coppers love deterring crime and nicking criminals - they should have as much manpower and funding as they need to do it. If axing PCCs and the attendant admin will put even one more Constable on shift, that would get my vote.

LS

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, lord_seagrave said:

I do not think that PCCs know more about policing priorities than the police themselves. Coppers love deterring crime and nicking criminals - they should have as much manpower and funding as they need to do it. If axing PCCs and the attendant admin will put even one more Constable on shift, that would get my vote.

Yes that sums it up nicely, just another layer of unnecessary bureaucracy!

[Walker570]

On 30/03/2021 at 14:11, udderlyoffroad said:

The police are not a charity!  You do not 'donate' to them - better known as bribery.   They are civil servants in uniform, paid to uphold the law and keep the Queen's peace.

 

I actually agree with the idea of a PCC ; I.e. removing the idea of a chief constable (comissioner in the met's case) as a political appointee.

Just need someone with testicular fortitude to run for office, and joe public to give a toss.  Which, in light of recent events in Bristol they just might start to do.

As it goes, I've just had my poll card through for the Avon and Somerset PCC candidates.  Will have a gander after work.

 

As a retired police officer it interested me to see what a Commisioner would do....other than open the door at a posh hotel... I wrote to ours in Leicestershire and asked what he was going to do about certain lack of police coverage and he replied to say that had nothing to do with his job and was up to the Chief Constable.  Never did find out what they actually do. Does anyone know??

Edited April 3, 2021 by Walker570

[JohnfromUK]

On 30/03/2021 at 17:22, TIGHTCHOKE said:

just another layer of unnecessary bureaucracy!

This /\

18 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Never did find out what they actually do. Does anyone know??

I live on the boundary of two areas.  To the south, the PCC has been quite effective in spending money ...... having set up a mounted facility, bought stables, horses etc.  I'm not aware they have been of any actual use as we are a rural area with little need for mounted police.  Nice for the horses though - and maybe the PCC is a hunting or racing man?

To the north (and where my taxes go) the PCC candidates were very 'visible' in the press, social media etc. prior to their election.  Afterwards, nothing ........ but I expect he has been busy attending civic functions in his chauffeur driven car.  I think he may also have attended a vaccination centre (very early on) when the just happened to have left over jabs needing using up - I know that mysteriously happened to the group of senior officials who run the County Council.  So lucky they were there with their sleeves rolled up ready to save the vaccine going to waste.  It appears that all 3 candidates ate standing on behalf of parties - the two main parties (Con & Lab) and the third id LibDem.

The Office of the PCC (https://www.westmercia-pcc.gov.uk/your-commissioner/pcc-team/) consists of;

1. The PCC
2. The Deputy PCC
3. Chief Executive &'Monitoring Office'
4. Assistant Chief Executive
5. Strategic Estates Manager
6. Personal Assistant to the PCC
7. Personal Assistant to Chief Exec, Deputy Chief Exec and Strategic Estates Manager
8. Staff Officer 1
9. Staff Officer 2
10. Commissioning Manager
11. Commissioning Officer
12. Commissioning Assistant
13. Senior Policy Manager
14. Criminal Justice Policy Manager
15. ICV Coordinator
16. Policy Officer
17. Policy Assistant
18. Senior Communications and Engagement Office
19. Treasurer
20. Finance Manager
21. Finance Officer

and that is I think just the 'top table'.  At an average cost of say 50K each, that is a million pounds in employment costs for that lot.

[Walker570]

But what do they actually do apart from sit around tables drinking mineral water and talking gobbledegook ?

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

But what do they actually do apart from sit around tables drinking mineral water and talking gobbledegook ?

Well, looking at the titles, they "Monitor", manage "Strategic Estates", "Commission" things, set "Policy" and "Criminal Justice Policy", and do "Communications" and "Engagement" - and have a financial team of 3 seniors to look after the purse.

What all that probably means is that they produce reports, targets, strategy etc., which they then engage with others (The Chief Constable - who probably has a similar 'team' to evaluate and if necessary implement these "reports, policies and strategies") to discuss implementation, how much extra manpower they will need - and what to cut back when they don't get the extra manpower.

I worked in a business for over 20 years which grew in my time there from about 60 employees to about 400.  When we were 60, we were small, efficient, agile and flexible - which kept is very competitive against larger businesses.   Then we did well - so grew.  In that time, the people who designed and made our saleable products grew from about 30 to about 150.  Those processing paperwork and handling 'business' such as personnel, marketing, sales, financial etc. grew from about 30 to about 250 .......... so we became big, cumbersome and inflexible - and the price of the products went up to pay for it all, we then needed to shed about 100 staff to get competitive again. 

The problem with a police force and similar organisations is that they are not operating in a competitive environment which would keep them efficient.

[Bird Scarer]

On 30/03/2021 at 09:51, lord_seagrave said:

Hi chaps, apologies for the radio silence of late. All OK, btw.

I am not a ranter, but, I’ve just had polling cards through for the PCC election.

Having had a look, the average salary for this position is nearly £100k, with average offices of 10 salaried staff.

If any of the candidates truly cared about policing, they would get real jobs and donate their salaries and budgets to fund police officers and crime investigation/prevention (although, I dare say the Chief Constable would probably spend it on new flags for HQ and dancing lessons for Bobbies >shrugs<). Many of the candidates are ex-coppers/specials, so they surely understand that the police just want to get on with the Job?
 

Turnout for PCC elections is some of the lowest recorded. Factor in the costs of holding the elections themselves, and I cannot understand how these roles can be justified.

LS

Agree entirely, Leicestershire Crime Commissioner's Department cost Leicestershire £2.1m if they disbanded this not needed department and made the Chief Constable a Chief Constable not just in title but accountable   for the Leicestershire  Constabulary ( now dropped the Constabulary just called Police ) then this saving could possibly used to better the police service and maybe fund a decent uniform, to maybe gain more respect.

[enfieldspares]

21 hours ago, Walker570 said:

I wrote to ours in Leicestershire and asked what he was going to do about certain lack of police coverage and he replied to say that had nothing to do with his job and was up to the Chief Constable.  Never did find out what they actually do. Does anyone know??

He/she replaced the "Police Committees" that existed before them. But I suspect the actual reason PCCs exist is to further party politicise public services. And give jobs to ex-MPs or failed to ever get elected ex-candidates to be MPs. At a not unwelcomed to them £100,000 plus per annum salary. Nice work if you can get it!

[mel b3]

5 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

This /\

I live on the boundary of two areas.  To the south, the PCC has been quite effective in spending money ...... having set up a mounted facility, bought stables, horses etc.  I'm not aware they have been of any actual use as we are a rural area with little need for mounted police.  Nice for the horses though - and maybe the PCC is a hunting or racing man?

To the north (and where my taxes go) the PCC candidates were very 'visible' in the press, social media etc. prior to their election.  Afterwards, nothing ........ but I expect he has been busy attending civic functions in his chauffeur driven car.  I think he may also have attended a vaccination centre (very early on) when the just happened to have left over jabs needing using up - I know that mysteriously happened to the group of senior officials who run the County Council.  So lucky they were there with their sleeves rolled up ready to save the vaccine going to waste.  It appears that all 3 candidates ate standing on behalf of parties - the two main parties (Con & Lab) and the third id LibDem.

The Office of the PCC (https://www.westmercia-pcc.gov.uk/your-commissioner/pcc-team/) consists of;

1. The PCC
2. The Deputy PCC
3. Chief Executive &'Monitoring Office'
4. Assistant Chief Executive
5. Strategic Estates Manager
6. Personal Assistant to the PCC
7. Personal Assistant to Chief Exec, Deputy Chief Exec and Strategic Estates Manager
8. Staff Officer 1
9. Staff Officer 2
10. Commissioning Manager
11. Commissioning Officer
12. Commissioning Assistant
13. Senior Policy Manager
14. Criminal Justice Policy Manager
15. ICV Coordinator
16. Policy Officer
17. Policy Assistant
18. Senior Communications and Engagement Office
19. Treasurer
20. Finance Manager
21. Finance Officer

and that is I think just the 'top table'.  At an average cost of say 50K each, that is a million pounds in employment costs for that lot.

I wonder how many real police officers you could get , if you got rid of that lot ?.

[Walker570]

1 hour ago, mel b3 said:

I wonder how many real police officers you could get , if you got rid of that lot ?.

Difficult to find a real one these days I'm afraid.

[Walker570]

5 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Well, looking at the titles, they "Monitor", manage "Strategic Estates", "Commission" things, set "Policy" and "Criminal Justice Policy", and do "Communications" and "Engagement" - and have a financial team of 3 seniors to look after the purse.

What all that probably means is that they produce reports, targets, strategy etc., which they then engage with others (The Chief Constable - who probably has a similar 'team' to evaluate and if necessary implement these "reports, policies and strategies") to discuss implementation, how much extra manpower they will need - and what to cut back when they don't get the extra manpower.

I worked in a business for over 20 years which grew in my time there from about 60 employees to about 400.  When we were 60, we were small, efficient, agile and flexible - which kept is very competitive against larger businesses.   Then we did well - so grew.  In that time, the people who designed and made our saleable products grew from about 30 to about 150.  Those processing paperwork and handling 'business' such as personnel, marketing, sales, financial etc. grew from about 30 to about 250 .......... so we became big, cumbersome and inflexible - and the price of the products went up to pay for it all, we then needed to shed about 100 staff to get competitive again. 

The problem with a police force and similar organisations is that they are not operating in a competitive environment which would keep them efficient.

That is why I like the local policing system in Texas. The Sheriff/Police Commander in each town/county is elected by the locals as is the Judiciary.  Our forces have become too large and unwieldy and those in charge are all trying to climb on each others shoulders so they become a Sir.  Policing in this country has gone to the dogs as a result.

[bostonmick]

Our first pçc suspended the chief constable and undertook a lengthy court case which he lost and cost the force over half a million then had to reinstate him.the current one on his election manifesto said he would get g4s out of police contracts as they were not fit and then a few weeks after he got in g4s were found to be falsifying the number of calls they were handling but still they remain in place.he also said he was going to sort out the mess that was firearms licencing as it was unfair for people having to wait up go a year for grants etc but what we actually got was more beaurochracy. He did however manage to give a friend of his a job as assistant in a part time capacity on 30k a year.and since then nothing.the money they cost would be better put into more police officers on duty.he also said he would phase out pcso but their numbers have actually increased .just a stepping stone into politics really.no interest in the community they are supposed to serve.

[Jega]

Just been having a quick gander at our local PCC website ( Humberside ) ,bloody hell fire where do these jobs come from,four engagement officers ( nope me neither ) with their own engagement and communications manager.

The cheif honcho is on a very nice £ 90,000 a year for what i'm not sure ,anyway here's a breakdown of his office and staff, bloody legalised theft if you ask me when we are all desperately short of front line officers .

https://www.humberside-pcc.gov.uk/Document-Library/Working-for-You/Transparency/Who-we-are-and-what-we-do/OPCC-Staff-Structure-March-2021.pdf

Edited April 4, 2021 by Jega

[JohnfromUK]

7 hours ago, Jega said:

here's a breakdown of his office and staff

Very similar to the West Mercia list I posted above

[Newbie to this]

9 hours ago, Jega said:

https://www.humberside-pcc.gov.uk/Document-Library/Working-for-You/Transparency/Who-we-are-and-what-we-do/OPCC-Staff-Structure-March-2021.pdf

I think they need to drop the "and-what-we-do" bit, nowhere does it state on that PDF what they do!

[JohnfromUK]

15 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

I think they need to drop the "and-what-we-do" bit, nowhere does it state on that PDF what they do!

A lot of the titles are either vague or deliberately 'misleading'.  I think this is (in part anyway) an American habit.  Just look at the new title Prince Harry has - "Chief Impact Officer".  Ummm .........

[matone]

Just Google Vera Baird ,her career gives you a good indication of where PCC sits in the gravy train......