National Game Dealers Association statement on lead free ammunition

[matone]

34 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Right then, lets fast forward January 2023 we've all done as asked given up lead, been charged extortionate amounts of money for an inferior cartridge after being told they're cheaper to produce , game larders/ chillers full to bursting. Oh...Game dealer not answering the phone. No game birds in anywhere in your niche market shops, NO change !  Febuary / March  "BASC, NGDA join statement" What we now need to boost game sales is a Game assurance scheme, similar to Agricultures  "RED TRACTOR" for traceabliity and confidence in are product. we want every game shoot registered an inspected annually by "Quailfed inspectors" working for BASC/NGDA  won't cost much, £3/£4K a year. AND WE GUARANTEE sale of all your game at premium product prices.

You can see where Im going.

Not many can see it ,that`s the problem,and our Orgs walk into every tripwire that is set for them...talk about turkeys voting for Christmas....

Edited April 2, 2021 by matone

[8 shot]

17 minutes ago, matone said:

Not many can see it ,that`s the problem,and our Orgs walk into every tripwire that is set for them...talk about turkeys voting for Christmas....

Your absolutely right, in trying to prolong our sport, they roll over and pamper to people who will never eat game or any meat infact if you paid them, in doing so they are  actually bringing us closer to the end and very fast too. I'm not sure how we get these organisation to grow a pair and stand ang fight for the everyday shooting man ie.the backbone of there membership because when game shooting/shooters are the minority so are they along with there organisation. Common sense is a priceless commodity.

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, 8 shot said:

been charged extortionate amounts of money for an inferior cartridge after being told they're cheaper to produce

What clown told you that?

The raw material might be cheaper, but it uses far more energy to turn iron (describing it as steel is a bit of a push) into shot than lead.

Ultimately, the big commercial shoots will have to go lead-free, the smaller DIY syndicates probably not.

The EU have saddled themselves to the “precautionary principle” on banning lead (see also: vaccines, GM food), the UK gov is consulting about whether to follow suit.

The above has sweet FA to do with whatever press releases BASC or BGDA put out.

The supermarkets prefer steel shot game because they can run it through metal detectors and reject any remaining shot thus avoiding customer complaints/law suits when Johnny millennial breaks a tooth because he doesn’t chew his food properly.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

The supermarkets prefer steel shot game because they can run it through metal detectors and reject any remaining shot

Metal detectors detect lead perfectly well as well as steel.

10 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

The raw material might be cheaper, but it uses far more energy to turn iron (describing it as steel is a bit of a push) into shot than lead.

Well lead shot is about £36 for 7 Kg (Henry Cranks prices) so £ 5.15 per kilo.  https://www.henrykrank.com/lead-shot-7kg-tub.html

and steel shot is about £14.50 for 5 Kg (Shotgun reloading) so £2.90 per kilo  https://shotgunreloading.co.uk/product/steel-shot-5kg-tub/

so I'm not sure what you are trying to say?  Steel shot is a little over half the price of lead.

[clangerman]

2 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

What clown told you that?

The raw material might be cheaper, but it uses far more energy to turn iron (describing it as steel is a bit of a push) into shot than lead.

Ultimately, the big commercial shoots will have to go lead-free, the smaller DIY syndicates probably not.

The EU have saddled themselves to the “precautionary principle” on banning lead (see also: vaccines, GM food), the UK gov is consulting about whether to follow suit.

The above has sweet FA to do with whatever press releases BASC or BGDA put out.

The supermarkets prefer steel shot game because they can run it through metal detectors and reject any remaining shot thus avoiding customer complaints/law suits when Johnny millennial breaks a tooth because he doesn’t chew his food properly.

FAR MORE energy to produce steel than lead and those pushing this rubbish claim its about the environment cue hilarious laughter! 

[Conor O'Gorman]

There is no doubt that the changes ahead will be challenging for us all but the science and evidence around the impacts of lead ammunition on environment, wildlife and human health are overwhelming.  Try a search on Google Scholar for the key words you wish to explore or just click the link below for results of lead ammunition poisoning. A fair few results...

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=lead+ammunition+poisoning&btnG=

The situation ahead in the UK is that the Environment Agency, together with the Health and Safety Executive, are conducting a two-year process to review the evidence, conduct a public consultation and propose options for restrictions. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plans-announced-to-phase-out-lead-ammunition-in-bid-to-protect-wildlife

The UK government has shown support for shooting’s voluntary five-year transition away from both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns. That voluntary transition is in consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad.

There will be no knee jerk lead ammunition ban in the UK as things stand and both the voluntary transition and the government’s review must consider a complex mix of economics, technical factors and attitudes. 

However, there is a key principle we must not lose sight of:  further restrictions on lead ammunition must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand.

Ammunition manufacturers in the UK and abroad are developing new products but the amount of non-lead ammunition required for the UK and world-wide with current production facilities is a significant challenge.

There are no immediate changes on the horizon.  Any restrictions that do come into force will very likely be after the end of the five year voluntary transition away from lead shot announced by the shooting organisations over a year ago.

Looking on the bright side I think the review will provide opportunities for a rational assessment and positive solutions.

Because as conservationists we are committed to further reducing the risks of lead ammunition to the environment, wildlife and human health.

[8 shot]

3 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Ammunition manufacturers in the UK and abroad are developing new products but the amount of non-lead ammunition required for the UK and world-wide with current production facilities is a significant challenge.

Conor do you actually believe everything you put on here or are you told to by some organisation for every shooting person that believes lead has to go there is one that deep down doesn't. Some of the Bio wadding is damn right dangerours, starting to degrade in the case. Bigger lawsuit when somone is seriourly injured or worse.

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

Metal detectors detect lead perfectly well as well as steel.

Of course they do. These types of machines were after all developed to detect stainless steel swarf -not exactly magnetic - from food processing machinery further up the line.

But there's such a thing as a false positive rate which costs money too.  If the equipment is too rejection-happy as you've cranked up the sensitivity for lead (low ferritic content), you risk rejecting (aka throwing out) perfectly good product. If you're talking about game where the supply can be...variable, you don't want to risk not fulfilling a supermarket order because your rate of rejection is too high.

This problem can be amplified if you're talking about smaller producers who don't have on site electricians/technicians to dial these machines in, or machines that are started and stopped and not run continuously due to the non-continuous nature of game meat packing, compared to other types of meat packing.

No, far better to insist on steel shot, and even the smallest game dealer can do 100% inspection with a hand-wand.

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

so I'm not sure what you are trying to say?  Steel shot is a little over half the price of lead.

I was refuting the statement the poster I quoted  made: "after being told they're cheaper to produce".  It demonstrably isn't.  Steel is incredibly energy-intensive to turn from raw material into shot, and needs far more expensive machinery to do so.

In any case, quoting some prices from specialist retailers for small quantities has very little bearing on wholesale prices.  Most of the cost of both those products you linked to will be shipping.

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Most of the cost of both those products you linked to will be shipping.

I don't disagree, but the cost of ship[ping a kilo of lead will be similar to a kilo of steel surely?  Shipping costs are based on weight and bulk - weight being the same and bulk fairly similar.

4 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

It demonstrably isn't.  Steel is incredibly energy-intensive to turn from raw material into shot, and needs far more expensive machinery to do so.

I accept that steel is energy intensive (but lead is a costly raw material against steel being relatively cheap) and have no idea on the machinery ........... but the price of steel 'ready to load' shot is NOT more expensive - in fact it is cheaper.  The additional cost (I suspect) is the cartridge manufacturers covering the risk element, the development and research costs and the development cost of new bio degradable wadding and other components into which a lot of research effort has been concentrated.

Once steel is 'mainstream' and the research costs recouped - I can see no good reason why it should be more expensive than lead -and some reasons it should be a little cheaper.

[8 shot]

Why then are Steel Cartridges more /1000 than lead. Most if not all the shoots i shoot and beat on are, strictly non plastic wads, so steel in Bio Wad on Just Cartridges are at there cheapest £361/1000 any amount of fibre wad lead for less. The steel industry in this country is on it's knees so something else to import in years to come.

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, 8 shot said:

Why then are Steel Cartridges more /1000 than lead. Most if not all the shoots i shoot and beat on are, strictly non plastic wads, so steel in Bio Wad on Just Cartridges are at there cheapest £361/1000 any amount of fibre wad lead for less. The steel industry in this country is on it's knees so something else to import in years to come.

My guess as above is that they are recouping the development costs (mainly of wadding tests and trials) and also covering themselves for risk.   The powder presumably is the same (or at least costs about the same), cases the same and the actual shot should in my view be cheaper.  I believe some of the new bio degradable wad materials are at present expensive - but expected to come down in time.

[8 shot]

11 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

My guess as above is that they are recouping the development costs (mainly of wadding tests and trials) and also covering themselves for risk.   The powder presumably is the same (or at least costs about the same), cases the same and the actual shot should in my view be cheaper.  I believe some of the new bio degradable wad materials are at present expensive - but expected to come down in time.

Nothing ever goes down in price, especially in shooting. 17HMR ammo my case in point

[stockybasher]

13 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

There is no doubt that the changes ahead will be challenging for us all but the science and evidence around the impacts of lead ammunition on environment, wildlife and human health are overwhelming.  Try a search on Google Scholar for the key words you wish to explore or just click the link below for results of lead ammunition poisoning. A fair few results...

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=lead+ammunition+poisoning&btnG=

The situation ahead in the UK is that the Environment Agency, together with the Health and Safety Executive, are conducting a two-year process to review the evidence, conduct a public consultation and propose options for restrictions. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plans-announced-to-phase-out-lead-ammunition-in-bid-to-protect-wildlife

The UK government has shown support for shooting’s voluntary five-year transition away from both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns. That voluntary transition is in consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad.

There will be no knee jerk lead ammunition ban in the UK as things stand and both the voluntary transition and the government’s review must consider a complex mix of economics, technical factors and attitudes. 

However, there is a key principle we must not lose sight of:  further restrictions on lead ammunition must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand.

Ammunition manufacturers in the UK and abroad are developing new products but the amount of non-lead ammunition required for the UK and world-wide with current production facilities is a significant challenge.

There are no immediate changes on the horizon.  Any restrictions that do come into force will very likely be after the end of the five year voluntary transition away from lead shot announced by the shooting organisations over a year ago.

Looking on the bright side I think the review will provide opportunities for a rational assessment and positive solutions.

Because as conservationists we are committed to further reducing the risks of lead ammunition to the environment, wildlife and human health.

Hi Connor

Did the National Game Dealers Association  consult with BASC before making and advertising their decision that their members would no longer take game shot with lead after Jul 22 ?? 

The net result is bound to be that most "commercial" shoots will have to insist on the use of non-steel loads for the season starting Aug 22 - and many thousands of shooters will be required to change away from lead, some 3 years before the voluntary transition away from lead.  The impact on the bigger shoots specialising in "hi" birds is going to be profound, and surely shooters will not pay the premium prices (£60/bird) to shoot average birds with steel /non-lead.

The end is nigh 😞  

 

[Pangolin]

 

[8 shot]

2 hours ago, Pangolin said:

 

We really need to disregard most of these youtube gunshop video as they are mostly bias against lead as they stand to make considerable profits from the switch to steel,either though gun sales or gun alterations and cartridge sales. There is a FSC test on the Bio degradeable wads and cases and they as proven in the clip degrade to quickly, so giving cartridges a self life and more worrying making them, in my opinion dangerous, with the user of these cartridges bring unable to judge if or how much they have started to degrade, which as a guess will also depend on so many differnt variable. 

[Pangolin]

4 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

We really need to disregard most of these youtube gunshop video as they are mostly bias against lead as they stand to make considerable profits from the switch to steel,either though gun sales or gun alterations and cartridge sales. There is a FSC test on the Bio degradeable wads and cases and they as proven in the clip degrade to quickly, so giving cartridges a self life and more worrying making them, in my opinion dangerous, with the user of these cartridges bring unable to judge if or how much they have started to degrade, which as a guess will also depend on so many differnt variable. 

I dont know if you watched it but they go through what you will and wont be able to put through a gun etc. It wasnt just a 'you must buy this' video as such.

[Fellside]

I am as dismayed and troubled by the creep towards non-lead as anyone else. However I thought I’d throw in a ‘positive’ here in amongst all the doom and gloom. That is to say the Danish and American experiences with steel have been reasonably good. They are still enjoying their shooting and have made all the necessary adjustments. Having said that, they mainly use semi-autos, so recoil with heavyish steel loads is not such a factor. Perhaps in time (and I’m not suggesting tomorrow) we will transition away from fine guns and embrace the semi-auto culture and safety practices. So ends my crystal ball gazing for now (??).....just food for thought. 

[Pangolin]

8 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I am as dismayed and troubled by the creep towards non-lead as anyone else. However I thought I’d throw in a ‘positive’ here in amongst all the doom and gloom. That is to say the Danish and American experiences with steel have been reasonably good. They are still enjoying their shooting and have made all the necessary adjustments. Having said that, they mainly use semi-autos, so recoil with heavyish steel loads is not such a factor. Perhaps in time (and I’m not suggesting tomorrow) we will transition away from fine guns and embrace the semi-auto culture and safety practices. So ends my crystal ball gazing for now (??).....just food for thought. 

In the vid I posted they say the same about the Danish using steel in older guns etc.

 

[Fellside]

4 minutes ago, Pangolin said:

In the vid I posted they say the same about the Danish using steel in older guns etc.

 

That’s right. While there is a strong trend in Denmark towards more....shall we say...practical guns, there appears to be a small niche for old world guns. I believe they use standard velocity steel shot through them. Curious. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

23 hours ago, 8 shot said:

Conor do you actually believe everything you put on here or are you told to by some organisation for every shooting person that believes lead has to go there is one that deep down doesn't. Some of the Bio wadding is damn right dangerours, starting to degrade in the case. Bigger lawsuit when somone is seriourly injured or worse.

Attitudes are indeed changing and surveys by various organisations are measuring this. 

Here is an update from GWCT:

https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2021/march/strong-support-for-change-as-environment-agency-launches-lead-ammunition-review/

Hopefully, you have had a chance to watch the TGS video posted by others above.

Also, well worth listening to the following podcast from Guns On Pegs for an interview with Gamebore's managing director Paul James from 19:30 onwards:

https://www.gunsonpegs.com/articles/shooting-talk/the-guns-on-pegs-podcast

 

 

[Newbie to this]

3 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Attitudes are indeed changing and surveys by various organisations are measuring this. 

Just a shame that The BASC didn't conduct a survey of their membership, before announcing on their behalf 

[Conor O'Gorman]

9 hours ago, stockybasher said:

Hi Connor

Did the National Game Dealers Association  consult with BASC before making and advertising their decision that their members would no longer take game shot with lead after Jul 22 ?? 

The net result is bound to be that most "commercial" shoots will have to insist on the use of non-steel loads for the season starting Aug 22 - and many thousands of shooters will be required to change away from lead, some 3 years before the voluntary transition away from lead.  The impact on the bigger shoots specialising in "hi" birds is going to be profound, and surely shooters will not pay the premium prices (£60/bird) to shoot average birds with steel /non-lead.

The end is nigh 😞  

 

No. This was a decision by NGDA members at their AGM as per the OP. The response to the decision by the various organisations have been published - see their various websites. See also an indepth piece with the National Gamekeepers Organisation in the TGS video linked above and follow-up interviews that are well worth a watch.

[Conor O'Gorman]

12 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Just a shame that The BASC didn't conduct a survey of their membership, before announcing on their behalf 

BASC has conducted many surveys of its membership on lead ammunition over the years and we continue to do so. In a recent BASC membership survey, 70% of respondents stated “phasing out the use of lead and plastic shotgun ammunition” as either very or somewhat important.

[clangerman]

8 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Attitudes are indeed changing and surveys by various organisations are measuring this

 

 

the basc claim of 70% in favour was achieved by including the lead in WITH plastic care to explain that? 

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 minutes ago, clangerman said:

the basc claim of 70% in favour was achieved by including the lead in WITH plastic care to explain that? 

Perhaps you could email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk and we can arrange to discuss the concerns you have raised on this and various other issues over the phone?