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Tonka54
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Sorry if this subject has been threaded elsewhere in the forum.

I work for a company that supplies clay pigeons to a lot of the shooting schools and gun clubs within the UK, subject to speaking with quite a few of their management members it appears that the issue of lead free shot will primarily affect the game shooting fraternity.

However, most agree that the clay shooting community will have about one further season of using lead shot before having to consider the move to steel or a much more expensive alternative.

It further appears that most modern guns will already be proofed for steel, in this case the only considerations will be the added expense of steel shot and the period of time it takes to get used to the different characteristics, for some, it will also involve re-choking, but by and large that will be about it.

For those of us with older shotguns the problem is not so simple, opinions differ quite a lot, ie: some say all that is necessary is steel proof chokes, and providing your barrels are strong enough to meet the minimum requirements that's it, the theory behind this is the fact that the steel shot is in a plastic cup, the shot remains in the cup until it leaves the end of the barrels at which point the cup behaves like normal wadding and separates. in this case the shot never comes into contact with the inner barrel surfaces, therefore no damage???.

Others believe that even the use of steel proof chokes no greater than half could still result in barrel "ring bulge" due to the bottleneck affect caused by the chokes restriction.

I may have got the wrong information, or completely got hold of the wrong end of the stick, what do other members think.

 

  

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It's been done and re-done on PW and elsewhere such as SD. However for many now that "English Sporting" is for many the majority of what they shoot at clays there may be an additional metal to consider. For the aim is to break the clay. Broken is broken. Unlike with live quarry where a mere strike on it isn't enough as power and penetration are required to give a clean, quick, humane kill.

The answer may be a look again at tin shot? This was briefly one of the metals that was tried as a non-lead substitute for wildfowl. It didn't really cut the mustard but on clays? Maybe it would work? And certainly in my forty years of shooting I've seen, for clays under CPSA, the cartridge load be lightened from 1 1/8 ounce to 1 ounce and it may be that it is lightened more if steel is to be the unwelcome future?

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3 minutes ago, JTaylor91 said:

My local ground doesn’t allow steel due to the risk of ricochet. I wonder if they will change that stance if lead is banned.

We were chatting earlier and I can't see many shooters buying bismuth to shoot at clays!

 

Some mighty big changes coming along.

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Not so the BIOAMMO wads. I have been shooting them at clays for months now. left a couple of wads and cases on my lawn and they have been there for at least two months  with no indication of breaking up. I believe the manufacturers say 18 months out in the open for break up.

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There was recently a most interesting podcast on the GunsonPegs site where they talked to a chap from Gamebore about this very subject.More than worth listening to for anyone interested  in finding out the TRUE situation that we have been put in by our supposed defenders!!!!!

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14 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

Not so the BIOAMMO wads. I have been shooting them at clays for months now. left a couple of wads and cases on my lawn and they have been there for at least two months  with no indication of breaking up. I believe the manufacturers say 18 months out in the open for break up.

Absolutely no good what so ever for livestock farmers. Watch The BIG GREEN ShotgunCartridge Test on YouTube, they're damn right dangerous

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Tin shot will be very expensive Tin is about 27,000 US dollars a tonne, Lead is about 1950 US dollars a tonne.

as for bioammo not decomposing that is possibly due to them being made from what the packaging people call bioplastic which decomposes when buried in landfill dumps not when in the open lying on top of soil.

 

Edited by rbrowning2
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10 minutes ago, matone said:

There was recently a most interesting podcast on the GunsonPegs site where they talked to a chap from Gamebore about this very subject.More than worth listening to for anyone interested  in finding out the TRUE situation that we have been put in by our supposed defenders!!!!!

Thanks,  puts it all in perspective from a leading cartridge manufacture.

Season Two Episode Ten - The Steel Shot Episode - life afer lead

https://www.gunsonpegs.com/articles/shooting-talk/the-guns-on-pegs-podcast?utm_source=GameCard31stMarch&utm_medium=email

 

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2 hours ago, matone said:

There was recently a most interesting podcast on the GunsonPegs site where they talked to a chap from Gamebore about this very subject.More than worth listening to for anyone interested  in finding out the TRUE situation that we have been put in by our supposed defenders!!!!!

What he had to say can't be argued with. If a multi national like coca cola can't crack the problem then what chance does a niche company like Gamebore have? Coca cola will certainly have tried as it would be a huge selling point for them.

The future has to be steel/plas if the industry has any chance of survival. Once a total ban is in, claygrounds that are fibre will have to allow plastic and charge more or organise wad picking days. No one at grass roots will pay £360 a thou for degradable alternatives.

WR.

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5 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

We were chatting earlier and I can't see many shooters buying bismuth to shoot at clays!

 

Some mighty big changes coming along.

Not a chance I would use bismuth to shoot clays.

I suspect the grounds that said steel was too dangerous will all of a sudden be okay with it.

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I have a feeling that Tungsten super shot (TSS) is the current favourite being considered, that won't be a cheap alternative either.

Best we can hope for is a breakthrough before we run out of time and steel becomes mandatory. 

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"I thought we had to have eco wads as well as non lead shot ."

"The eley ones that were introduced last year don't work .as the wad breaks  down inside the unfired cartridge within 3 months of manufacture  ."

 

I have been using Eley pro ecowads (with steel shot) for about 18 months. No probs whatsoever. Just opened some of my original batch to have a look - perfect. 

Edited by stagboy
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17 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Wondering what the forestry commission plan to use for pest control and deer management 

they don’t like steel in the timber 

Forestry England have been using non-toxic for at least 5 years to my knowledge. I specifically asked a ranger in private if he had experiended any issues with copper and he said no problems at all. Bear in mind that anyone shooting 200+ deer per year will not want runners and the grief of retrieval far away from where they shoot. The rangers usually use .308s.

FE do not currently control grey squirrels at all, a disgrace really, so that ammunition question does not arise.

There are, however, very many syndicate game shoots on Forestry England controlled land. The question of whether steel would be damaging for their machines is an interesting one as a lot of wood now goes for pulp and use in power generation

If I have to pay say £2.50 a shot to shoot a deer with copper rather than £1.25 with lead, that is still really cheap meat. I normally use around 100 lead rounds and 20 copper a year practising. Currently I shoot all meat for my consumption with lead, as I butcher away from bruised meat I really do not see that as a problem for game dealers, supermarkets or the general public as it does not affect them in any way. Happy to use a copper bullet if shooting larger deer that go into the public food chain.

Absolutely no reason in my view why lead needs to be banned for any form of practice or target shooting, that includes clays, plinking with air rifles or any other form of target shooting. I also cannot see our armed forces wanting ammunition at twice the price.

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21 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Tin shot will be very expensive Tin is about 27,000 US dollars a tonne, Lead is about 1950 US dollars a tonne.

as for bioammo not decomposing that is possibly due to them being made from what the packaging people call bioplastic which decomposes when buried in landfill dumps not when in the open lying on top of soil.

 

Hull did tin shells years ago and they jusy bounced of ducks

 

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23 minutes ago, 243deer said:

Forestry England have been using non-toxic for at least 5 years to my knowledge. I specifically asked a ranger in private if he had experiended any issues with copper and he said no problems at all. Bear in mind that anyone shooting 200+ deer per year will not want runners and the grief of retrieval far away from where they shoot. The rangers usually use .308s.

FE do not currently control grey squirrels at all, a disgrace really, so that ammunition question does not arise.

There are, however, very many syndicate game shoots on Forestry England controlled land. The question of whether steel would be damaging for their machines is an interesting one as a lot of wood now goes for pulp and use in power generation

If I have to pay say £2.50 a shot to shoot a deer with copper rather than £1.25 with lead, that is still really cheap meat. I normally use around 100 lead rounds and 20 copper a year practising. Currently I shoot all meat for my consumption with lead, as I butcher away from bruised meat I really do not see that as a problem for game dealers, supermarkets or the general public as it does not affect them in any way. Happy to use a copper bullet if shooting larger deer that go into the public food chain.

Absolutely no reason in my view why lead needs to be banned for any form of practice or target shooting, that includes clays, plinking with air rifles or any other form of target shooting. I also cannot see our armed forces wanting ammunition at twice the price.

Thank you for your comprehensive reply 

the forestry commission land that forms part of the syndicated shoot local to me have requested no steel shot maybe that’s going to change in the future 👍

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The problem with steel and trees is when the timber is sold for joinery.  If you embed steel into a tree trunk, when the iron rusts the capillary action will carry the rust stain a long way up and down the trunk, thus causing an imperfection and getting the timber rejected.

That's the explanation I heard from the forester on the estate we shoot on, when handing out a polite bol***king to the guy who hammered peg numbers into the trees with nails one year!

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