Small Bore Garden Gun Ammunition Performance - .410 9mm & .22 Shellshot

[Downforce]

Hi All

I got "forced" to buy a .410 as a result of rats entering our garden to get to next door's birdseed/chicken sheds and not wanting to scare the bejususes out of the neighbours with the 12G

I actually really liked the .410 and was surprised by its capabilities and now have the old Webley I bought and and a pump Mossie and a O/U, I also noticed that theres a lot of demand for .410s and smaller bore guns at the moment so I thought it might be interesting - you can be the judge of that - to see just how "useful" they are

Over the next weeks I would like to do some comparisons between .410 9mm & .22 Shellshot, specifically looking to dispel some of the myths out there about shooting in greenhouses and the like ! I have a few .410 guns and I have a 9mm but dont have a .22 Shotgun

One repeatable test I have seen thats (sort of) representitive of small animals is a plastic milk carton filled with water and I've seen good results from .410 at about 15m and what I'd say is acceptable results for smaller vermin critter from 9mm at the same sort of distance

Long story short I'd like to compare both power and accuracy over different distances as well as different loads (see my other post where bigger .410 homeloads were discussed already and realistically the .410 is the only one I can homeload) and put together what works for me in the form of a table or something that says what might be too far for certain calibres/loads etc and whats got enough power to give a clean shot etc.

But I'm missing some stuff and unfortunately it's not proving too easy to just go to one place and buy a bunch

1.  .22 Shotgun and cartridges (loan/gift/deal)
2.  .410 reloading bits in really small quantities (10-20) like empty hulls, wads, cards, different primers (I have CX50 available) but most tricky to buy at the moment is 410 / L'il Gun / SP3 powder - seems to be a shortage / 410 commercial cartridges - Gamebore Eley Hull etc. to compare different loads in different guns B2B
3.  Pattern cards - I'm sure these can be purchased but every time I search pattern plates i just get dinner plates ! DOH! Tips on wehere to buy?
4. Chrono maybe ??

I'm happy to pay for the bits but finding it necessary to pay loads of postage for lots of small purchases - particularly on the primers/powders etc when i only need a fraction of what I'd need to buy

I'd also be interested as to hear any specifics other people think would be interesting to look at in a semi scientific way 🙂

I did consider a light load 2" 12G but if I'm honest I think thats biting off too much and comparing apples with lego

I'm in Hertfordshire if anyone has any bits they would be prepared to donate or loan in the case of a .22 shotgun  that would be brilliant

I dont want to pre judge the outcome as Obviously the 410 will go further and hit harder and I'm sure there's lots of good knowledge out there about them but I'm looking to provide some accurate stats based on side by side comparisons rather than just what people know (no offence)! I'll try and make a video but I am a bit camera shy

D

Edited April 20, 2021 by Downforce
spelling

[steve_b_wales]

All I can say is, in my opinion, .22 shotshell is rubbish for vermin, unless very close range (a few feet away)

[Downforce]

1 minute ago, steve_b_wales said:

All I can say is, in my opinion, .22 shotshell is rubbish for vermin, unless very close range (a few feet away)

Yep - thats what I heard too - now I want to prove how good/bad it is

Reason being I also heard from a very reputable source that 410 was rubbish before I bought one !

[Ultrastu]

Not all guns are built or shoot the same .

Mate and I have just been pattern testing at 20 and 25 yds  our .410 s there was a very clear difference between the 2 guns with a variety of carts but a similar trend between them .ie my yildiz seems to pattern tighter and more consistently with all the carts over my mates baikal. 

So testing one gun in 9mm or .22  will only really tell you what that gun does .

The narrower the bore the more difference there can be between guns of the same cal .

I also agree .410 is a great calibre and I use mine often and it kills well out to 30yds  

[bruno22rf]

We used to pull the top card off 9mm flobert shells and refill with No5 shot to shoot rats, I had a 3 shot semi auto and it would kill clean at 17-20 yards.

[Centrepin]

I have two same make .410s. Both Belguim single shot folding "poachers" guns.

Almost identical except one has a moderator fitted giving a barrel length of 30", the other cut down for my grandson, barrel length 25". Both full choke.

Both pattern differant with same 2" cartridges of 9gram, and differant again with 2 1/2" 14gram.

Both shoot and handle differant.

Teaching the lad I used plastic milk bottles full of water at various ranges. Penetration, seemed the same. In/out Both sides. 

I've killed running rats at up to 25 yards. He's now regularly killing rats at up to 10 yards and more, and recently shot his first crow as it flared to land.

I really don't think that testing one type against the other will prove anything especially with home loads. 

I wouldn't worry about statistics just use them, enjoy them and make the best out of what you have. 

[London Best]

I tried .22 shot shells about 55 years ago. Found them to sometimes be effective as much as ten feet, sometimes.

I only have two experiences (anecdotes) with 9mm shotshells. In the sixties A friend used to shoot rabbits on the grass verge from his car window, range about five yards. Dunno how much further it was possible. 
And I remember a farmer friend once shooting a pig with one. Range about two inches.  
Sorry I can’t be more helpful.

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, steve_b_wales said:

All I can say is, in my opinion, .22 shotshell is rubbish for vermin, unless very close range (a few feet away)

I had at various times the full trio of Webley bolt guns...the .410, the 9mm R/F and the .22 R/F. I also had (when I held was an RFD) a Harrington & Richardson "Handy Gun" in .410 which was one of those in the 3" .410 chambering.

Here: http://www.fourten.org.uk/mwhandygun.html

So my thoughts. The .410 Webley and the .410 Handy Gun will kill pigeon out to thirty yards plus if the pattern in good. I've killed for testing purposes sitting woodpigeon on grass at that distance with the Handy Gun.

The 9mm R/F and the .22 R/F are handicapped by the first inappropriate shot size and the last by inadequate capacity even in the American CCI .22 R/F shotshells. So the pattern with the 9mm R/F is too full of holes and with the .22 R/F even with #12 shot it is no good as the shot doesn't have enough "poke" to deliver a killing shot.

I've shot at rats with the .22 R/F and hit them....the shot penetrates straight through...I saw the blood on the rammed dirt floor behind them but they still ran off. The 9mm R/F I've shot a squirrels with also poor results. 

Thus even back in the 1980s (the time of which I am writing) my preferred squirrel and rat "medicine" was my father's .22 BSA Airsporter Mk I. A hit with either was if placed through the shoulders fatal or if not was a "stopping" shot allowing a follow up that would deliver the coup de grace.

Thus IMHO now as back then I remain convinced that rats are more at risk of harm from the elements (aka bad weather) than they ever were or will ever be from a Webley bolt action .22 R/F.

For it should be remembered that, in part, in the UK and then "colonies" these .22 R/F shotguns were more for those collectors wishing to kill songbirds at quite close range without spoiling the plumage for taxidermy (at which they excelled) than they ever really were for shooting rats. Thus the traditionally #12 shot in these .22 R/F cartridges.

Edited April 20, 2021 by enfieldspares

[Downforce]

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

Not all guns are built or shoot the same .

Mate and I have just been pattern testing at 20 and 25 yds  our .410 s there was a very clear difference between the 2 guns with a variety of carts but a similar trend between them .ie my yildiz seems to pattern tighter and more consistently with all the carts over my mates baikal. 

So testing one gun in 9mm or .22  will only really tell you what that gun does .

The narrower the bore the more difference there can be between guns of the same cal .

I also agree .410 is a great calibre and I use mine often and it kills well out to 30yds  

Thats interesting

Did you take any notes/pictures ? Did you use proper pattern cards or just a sheet of card or something (as i said I cant find someone that sells them cheap)

What size of prey are you shooting at 30 yards ?

55 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

We used to pull the top card off 9mm flobert shells and refill with No5 shot to shoot rats, I had a 3 shot semi auto and it would kill clean at 17-20 yards.

I like the idea of a semi - what was it ?

I also was considering replacing .410 6/7 shot with something bigger to get the penetration - see other thread

[Downforce]

41 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

I have two same make .410s. Both Belguim single shot folding "poachers" guns.

Almost identical except one has a moderator fitted giving a barrel length of 30", the other cut down for my grandson, barrel length 25". Both full choke.

Both pattern differant with same 2" cartridges of 9gram, and differant again with 2 1/2" 14gram.

Both shoot and handle differant.

Teaching the lad I used plastic milk bottles full of water at various ranges. Penetration, seemed the same. In/out Both sides. 

I've killed running rats at up to 25 yards. He's now regularly killing rats at up to 10 yards and more, and recently shot his first crow as it flared to land.

I really don't think that testing one type against the other will prove anything especially with home loads. 

I wouldn't worry about statistics just use them, enjoy them and make the best out of what you have. 

Fair Comment - I think what I am looking to see if if a 9mm can be as useful as a 410 and under what kind of conditions - I'm pretty sure a .22 or 9mm would be useless at 30-40 yards but would it take a rat at 15 say?

43 minutes ago, London Best said:

I tried .22 shot shells about 55 years ago. Found them to sometimes be effective as much as ten feet, sometimes.

I only have two experiences (anecdotes) with 9mm shotshells. In the sixties A friend used to shoot rabbits on the grass verge from his car window, range about five yards. Dunno how much further it was possible. 
And I remember a farmer friend once shooting a pig with one. Range about two inches.  
Sorry I can’t be more helpful.

What happened with the pig ?

[Downforce]

15 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

I had at various times the full trio of Webley bolt guns...the .410, the 9mm R/F and the .22 R/F. I also had (when I held was an RFD) a Harrington & Richardson "Handy Gun" in .410 which was one of those in the 3" .410 chambering.

Here: http://www.fourten.org.uk/mwhandygun.html

So my thoughts. The .410 Webley and the .410 Handy Gun will kill pigeon out to thirty yards plus if the pattern in good. I've killed for testing purposes sitting woodpigeon on grass at that distance with the Handy Gun.

The 9mm R/F and the .22 R/F are handicapped by the first inappropriate shot size and the last by inadequate capacity even in the American CCI .22 R/F shotshells. So the pattern with the 9mm R/F is too full of holes and with the .22 R/F even with #12 shot it is no good as the shot doesn't have enough "poke" to deliver a killing shot.

I've shot at rats with the .22 R/F and hit them....the shot penetrates straight through...I saw the blood on the rammed dirt floor behind them but they still ran off. The 9mm R/F I've shot a squirrels with also poor results. 

Thus even back in the 1980s (the time of which I am writing) my preferred squirrel and rat "medicine" was my father's .22 BSA Airsporter Mk I. A hit with either was if placed through the shoulders fatal or if not was a "stopping" shot allowing a follow up that would deliver the coup de grace.

Thus IMHO now as back then I remain convinced that rats are more at risk of harm from the elements (aka bad weather) than they ever were or will ever be from a Webley bolt action .22 R/F.

For it should be remembered that, in part, in the UK and then "colonies" these .22 R/F shotguns were more for those collectors wishing to kill songbirds at quite close range without spoiling the plumage for taxidermy (at which they excelled) than they ever really were for shooting rats. Thus the traditionally #12 shot in these .22 R/F cartridges.

Thats really good gen

Based on the plastic milk carton test I would have thought 9mm would have easy done a squirrel at 10 yards or a rat at a bit more

What also really impressed me with the 410 though was my first two shots ever with the Webley were absolute instant clean kills, not surprisingly the first at maybe 10 yards but the second was a good bit further. Going slightly off topic - I also heard a lot of people say that shooting clays with a 410 is hard work but I found the Mossie was a star once I got my eye in I could hit about 70% (and I'm not that good to start with)

[London Best]

27 minutes ago, Downforce said:

 

What happened with the pig ?

Died instantly.

[Ultrastu]

1 hour ago, Downforce said:

What size of prey are you shooting at 30 yards ?

I shoot woodpigeons and crows on the wing out to 35 yds at a push . 25 -30 yds is more reliable .

20 yds and they are toast .might as well have hit them with a sledge hammer .

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, Downforce said:

Based on the plastic milk carton test I would have thought 9mm would have easy done a squirrel at 10 yards or a rat at a bit more

I think with a smaller size of shot it might well do. But back in the 1980s pretty much the only 9mm R/F cartridges were Eley's that threw a poor pattern as the shot size was too large. I did also have when they were still s2 a Bernardelli self-loading 9mm R/F with detachable three shot magazine. In truth it was horrible to shoot as it was simple blowback not a locked breech. So all sorts of nasty stuff came out of the ejection port into your face. I stopped using it and sold it. It wasn't pleasant to shoot.

[Old farrier]

Any mileage in loading the 9 mm with tss ? 

[Downforce]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Any mileage in loading the 9 mm with tss ? 

Not sure I get the point/intention - can you expand on what you are thinking ?

I get the TSS but whats the intention/outcome you are thing TSS would provide

[Old farrier]

9 hours ago, Downforce said:

Not sure I get the point/intention - can you expand on what you are thinking ?

I get the TSS but whats the intention/outcome you are thing TSS would provide

Well you’re going to get a bigger shot count and more down range energy possibly some of the Hw maybe improving the range of the 9 mm 

just a thought 

[Downforce]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Well you’re going to get a bigger shot count and more down range energy possibly some of the Hw maybe improving the range of the 9 mm 

just a thought 

CAVEAT - I am not a ballisitcs expert but understand basic physics...

The case has got a certain size, therefore there is a "limited" amount of real estate to fill with powder and pellets. If you take the existing pellets out of a 9mm case and replace with the same weight of bigger or heavier pellets there will be less pellets in total therefore at the extreme think shotgun vs. rifle/slug but somewhere in between you'll have less pellets so obviously a less dense pattern. If you put a heavier load of pellets so you fill the same space with bigger heavier pellets or put more in, the amount of energy created by the powder burning is the same so same energy heavier load means lower speed projectile.

Obviously adding more powder could increase the speed again but that would have the potential for too much pressure to be created.

So in summary  are you saying - if TSS is lighter (for the equivalent size lead pellet) although the overall weight could be similar you could have more quantity  larger pellets in TSS? In any case if you ended up with hitting the target with 8 pellets either way if they were travelling at the same speed with the same weight the bigger ones could be more lethal?

I guess the disadvange that goes with a lighter pellet travelling at the same speed is that it transfers less energy into what it hits so you'd need enough space in the cartridge to replace (say) 50 size 7 lead shot with 50 size 5 TSS shot - is that what you mean?

[theshootist]

I think TSS is denser than lead. So smaller pellets of the same weight means more pellets in your 9mm garden gun. 

I tested a couple of .22 shot shells through a rifle once. Do doubt the rifling altered the pattern, but it was of very little use against an empty cola can at 4 yards! 

I've been shooting rats over the last year in and around my chicken pen with a .410 Mossberg. I suppose some of the shots could have been taken with a 9mm Flobert, but not all. 

[Old farrier]

2 hours ago, Downforce said:

CAVEAT - I am not a ballisitcs expert but understand basic physics...

The case has got a certain size, therefore there is a "limited" amount of real estate to fill with powder and pellets. If you take the existing pellets out of a 9mm case and replace with the same weight of bigger or heavier pellets there will be less pellets in total therefore at the extreme think shotgun vs. rifle/slug but somewhere in between you'll have less pellets so obviously a less dense pattern. If you put a heavier load of pellets so you fill the same space with bigger heavier pellets or put more in, the amount of energy created by the powder burning is the same so same energy heavier load means lower speed projectile.

Obviously adding more powder could increase the speed again but that would have the potential for too much pressure to be created.

So in summary  are you saying - if TSS is lighter (for the equivalent size lead pellet) although the overall weight could be similar you could have more quantity  larger pellets in TSS? In any case if you ended up with hitting the target with 8 pellets either way if they were travelling at the same speed with the same weight the bigger ones could be more lethal?

I guess the disadvange that goes with a lighter pellet travelling at the same speed is that it transfers less energy into what it hits so you'd need enough space in the cartridge to replace (say) 50 size 7 lead shot with 50 size 5 TSS shot - is that what you mean?

TSS and HW are heavier than lead 

so you can replace your 50 size 5 for 70 size 9 tss 

smaller but heavier 

[Downforce]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

TSS and HW are heavier than lead 

so you can replace your 50 size 5 for 70 size 9 tss 

smaller but heavier 

Whats the intention then to

1. put more small pellets (same weight as lead but smaller so more fit in case) 
2. have same size/qty pellets but heavier total load
3. put the same overall total weight with smaller pellets
4. something else

As far as my understanding goes if you increase the overall load weight the velocity would be reduced accordingly (same energy more weight to push)

I'm happy to try something out within safe limits  as long as I understand what I'm trying to prove - but I would have thought just using larger shot/pellets of the same weight/per pellet as the lead would retain the same energy per pellet down range but bigger pellets would be less inclined to penetrate (in and out) therefore all the energy gets transferred to the target but they would also lose energy quicker due to the resistance against their surface area - which is good when they are hitting the target but bad when they have to go a long way in air - does that sound sensible

So I guess I am asking what does making the pellets smaller but heavier achieve - maybe I'm just not getting the point

theres probably a better way to say it - if theres more smaller heavier shot - they will leave the barrel slower (with the same powder load) so would that not mean that they just wouldnt go as far? Happy to try the theory out.

D

Edited April 21, 2021 by Downforce

[Downforce]

Just as a reminder does anyone in Herts/Beds/Cambs maybe Essex/Northants/Oxfordshire have a stash of 410 reloading bits (or a .22 shotgun/Crono to loan) they dont need and could free up some for testing.

[Old farrier]

2 hours ago, Downforce said:

Whats the intention then to

1. put more small pellets (same weight as lead but smaller so more fit in case) 
2. have same size/qty pellets but heavier total load
3. put the same overall total weight with smaller pellets
4. something else

As far as my understanding goes if you increase the overall load weight the velocity would be reduced accordingly (same energy more weight to push)

I'm happy to try something out within safe limits  as long as I understand what I'm trying to prove - but I would have thought just using larger shot/pellets of the same weight/per pellet as the lead would retain the same energy per pellet down range but bigger pellets would be less inclined to penetrate (in and out) therefore all the energy gets transferred to the target but they would also lose energy quicker due to the resistance against their surface area - which is good when they are hitting the target but bad when they have to go a long way in air - does that sound sensible

So I guess I am asking what does making the pellets smaller but heavier achieve - maybe I'm just not getting the point

theres probably a better way to say it - if theres more smaller heavier shot - they will leave the barrel slower (with the same powder load) so would that not mean that they just wouldnt go as far? Happy to try the theory out.

D

Wasn’t looking for a debate about it just asked if there’ll any mileage in it 

you do your experiments 

I’ll carry on shooting HW out of my 4.10 

[London Best]

This particular “shotgun” thread is the equivalent in the rifle world of the air gun boys trying to wring an extra half foot pound of energy from a given air gun. At the end of much experimenting it will not have made a jot of difference. You will have been wasting your time. JMO.

[Walker570]

21 hours ago, steve_b_wales said:

All I can say is, in my opinion, .22 shotshell is rubbish for vermin, unless very close range (a few feet away)

Yes, totally useless other than inside sheds where you don't want to damage the roof material.  Stick with the 410 it will surprise you with IT's capabilities if yours come up to scratch.  Very rarely shoot any other gauge these days.