Corona Virus was in Italy in September 2019

[henry d]

19 minutes ago, Scully said:

Just how precisely does a used mask offer you or anyone else any more or any less protection than a new one? You’re not contaminating anyone unless you’re sharing the thing!

Really? A mask is not there to protect you, it's to protect others, if you have Covid and wear it for long periods it will accumulate in the fibres making the possibility of transmission higher. The idea of a bag to contain it is so you don't then wipe the virus everywhere, it is contained. We are talking about things measured in microns

[Vince Green]

The reason Covid hit northern Italy so quickly was because the hotels use large numbers of Chinese migrant staff for all their menial jobs in the hotels.

If the evidence is there as early as september it just casts more doubt on China's increasingly dubious account of how and when and where it all started from.

Lets be honest, everybody believes it escaped from the lab, its just not possible to prove it. 

[henry d]

1 minute ago, Vince Green said:

Lets be honest, everybody believes it escaped from the lab, its just not possible to prove it. 

...or disprove it, as I say conspiracy theories of the highest order.

[Vince Green]

Just now, henry d said:

...or disprove it, as I say conspiracy theories of the highest order.

You use "conspiracy theory" as a term of insult but you do not offer a better view. Its not even appropriate given the discussion to revert to insult. Nobody invited your input, If you don't have a view, stay silent. If you have a view justify it it.

But don't just throw down cheap and meaningless garbage in an attempt to hijack other people's posts

[Scully]

30 minutes ago, henry d said:

Really? A mask is not there to protect you, it's to protect others, if you have Covid and wear it for long periods it will accumulate in the fibres making the possibility of transmission higher. The idea of a bag to contain it is so you don't then wipe the virus everywhere, it is contained. We are talking about things measured in microns

Yes really. Masks are supposed to be worn for the purposes of both, namely yourself and others, hence their use ( along with other PPE ) by hospital staff. 
But if they were as effective as some claim then perhaps we wouldn’t be in this pickle. Like someone else said, I too only wear one because I’m too polite not too, and I possibly wouldn’t get into the places I want to go without one. 
 

[12gauge82]

32 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

You use "conspiracy theory" as a term of insult but you do not offer a better view. Its not even appropriate given the discussion to revert to insult. Nobody invited your input, If you don't have a view, stay silent. If you have a view justify it it.

But don't just throw down cheap and meaningless garbage in an attempt to hijack other people's posts

Henry likes to preach but isn't very good at answering questions, he must have ignored at least 5 of mine the last few weeks.

48 minutes ago, henry d said:

...or disprove it, as I say conspiracy theories of the highest order.

As is yours unless you have verified information the rest of the world doesn't. 

[12gauge82]

9 hours ago, henry d said:

Really? A mask is not there to protect you, it's to protect others, if you have Covid and wear it for long periods it will accumulate in the fibres making the possibility of transmission higher. The idea of a bag to contain it is so you don't then wipe the virus everywhere, it is contained. We are talking about things measured in microns

Really? 

The corona virus is approximately.02-.05 microns in size, I'd say nanometers would be a much better scale to measure the virus in. 

[Docleo]

9 hours ago, Vince Green said:

You use "conspiracy theory" as a term of insult but you do not offer a better view. Its not even appropriate given the discussion to revert to insult. Nobody invited your input, If you don't have a view, stay silent. If you have a view justify it it.

But don't just throw down cheap and meaningless garbage in an attempt to hijack other people's posts

I believe saying it escaped from a lab is meaningless garbage, prove (and I say prove) me I'm wrong. 

[Vince Green]

48 minutes ago, Docleo said:

I believe saying it escaped from a lab is meaningless garbage, prove (and I say prove) me I'm wrong. 

The fact that a mutant bat virus is first detected in the streets immediately surrounding a high security lab known to be doing research into mutant bat viruses is far too much of a coincidence to be just a coincidence and ignored. Also the lab is known to have had lapses in the past.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck............................ 

Or should we believe the Chinese Government's highly implausable explanation that it just happened because somebody ate a bat?

Which doesn't explain why they went to so much trouble to try and cover it up afterwards?

Edited May 4, 2021 by Vince Green

[henry d]

11 hours ago, Vince Green said:

You use "conspiracy theory" as a term of insult but you do not offer a better view. Its not even appropriate given the discussion to revert to insult. Nobody invited your input, If you don't have a view, stay silent. If you have a view justify it it.

But don't just throw down cheap and meaningless garbage in an attempt to hijack other people's posts

I did respond to the OP with my thoughts as I found from the same source a conflicting paper, I also asked if he got it from YouTube and he didn't respond but let's look at the way people present their POV. 

It started with the statement "It has been proved and stated in a research paper..." So I read the dense paper and it seems to have substance, but I don't have the knowledge to confirm or understand it enough. So I was about to see what other papers are available to confirm it or not, and directly below was a paper, which I linked, that stated Covid was not in Italy at that time. The reason I asked about YouTube was I was directed there by one of the other links and I don't think it is the font of truth by any means.

So instead of having a proven paper we have conflicting papers, then we have your assertion

12 hours ago, Vince Green said:

The reason Covid hit northern Italy so quickly was because the hotels use large numbers of Chinese migrant staff for all their menial jobs in the hotels.

Can I ask where your proof comes from? I will add a few things for you to consider alongside your assertion; did all the Chinese staff come from Wuhan/Hubei province? Could other factors explain the reason for a rapid growth of infection such as the way both male and female Italians greet each other with kisses on both cheeks?

Conspiracy theories are ways people see something without digging into them and trying to figure out whether the information contained in them stands up to further scrutiny. Does a coincidence indicate truth? I would suggest that it does not, but neither does it mean it could be true, your duck analogy is exactly what started the flat earth conspiracy theory; the world seems to be flat, therefore it must be! It is after this that things take different turns, you either look at the evidence and analyse the evidence for and against it or, as true conspiracy theorists do, follow their biases

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

The fact that a mutant bat virus is first detected in the streets immediately surrounding a high security lab

So let's look at your fact. Human market is seen as the place where the virus was first transmitted and you say that the virus was first detected in the streets surrounding the lab (WIV I believe you mean) yet they are fourteen kilometres apart by foot according to Google maps. You back it up by saying that it has had lapses in the past, if you read up on it you would also find out that they added stringent safety measures to protect it including it being constructed to withstand earthquakes even though it is in an area affected by them. Your duck analogy is not quite as good if you weigh the evidence on safety. You then attack the Chinese government to bolster your position, and they are not a particularly touchy feely government are they? Or did they use force to close down the outbreak because they could and it was the best thing to do at the time? It was similar to Mary King's close in Edinburgh where the residents were locked in due to a possible plague outbreak and in both cases I am in agreement, sadly, that it was the only thing to do.

Anyhow, hijacking the post with cheap and meaningless garbage, my sincerest apologies 🙄

[Docleo]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

The fact that a mutant bat virus is first detected in the streets immediately surrounding a high security lab known to be doing research into mutant bat viruses is far too much of a coincidence to be just a coincidence and ignored. Also the lab is known to have had lapses in the past.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck............................ 

Or should we believe the Chinese Government's highly implausable explanation that it just happened because somebody ate a bat?

Which doesn't explain why they went to so much trouble to try and cover it up afterwards?

OK, nothing to support your theory. 

[Rewulf]

5 hours ago, Docleo said:

I believe saying it escaped from a lab is meaningless garbage, prove (and I say prove) me I'm wrong. 

Well I believe saying it came from a bat is meaningless garbage , prove me wrong 

Which to you sounds like the more plausible explanation?

Bat or lab?

Lets also take into consideration that the virus has been proven to be least effective against the Chinese.

2 hours ago, henry d said:

Anyhow, hijacking the post with cheap and meaningless garbage, my sincerest apologies 🙄

Well dont do it again😀

Until at least youve got something to add , rather than ridiculing everyone elses theories, by trying to label them as conspiracies.

No one KNOWS  where the covid virus came from, the bat story is pure speculation, 'they' THINK it MIGHT have come from a bat via a pangolin , but whatever and however it came about , lets be clear , it DEFINITELY didnt come from a lab, and the WHO says so , so it must be true 😏

[Scully]

Surely it was a bat cave, as opposed to a bat lab’? 🤔

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

I did respond to the OP with my thoughts as I found from the same source a conflicting paper, I also asked if he got it from YouTube and he didn't respond but let's look at the way people present their POV. 

It started with the statement "It has been proved and stated in a research paper..." So I read the dense paper and it seems to have substance, but I don't have the knowledge to confirm or understand it enough. So I was about to see what other papers are available to confirm it or not, and directly below was a paper, which I linked, that stated Covid was not in Italy at that time. The reason I asked about YouTube was I was directed there by one of the other links and I don't think it is the font of truth by any means.

So instead of having a proven paper we have conflicting papers, then we have your assertion

Can I ask where your proof comes from? I will add a few things for you to consider alongside your assertion; did all the Chinese staff come from Wuhan/Hubei province? Could other factors explain the reason for a rapid growth of infection such as the way both male and female Italians greet each other with kisses on both cheeks?

Conspiracy theories are ways people see something without digging into them and trying to figure out whether the information contained in them stands up to further scrutiny. Does a coincidence indicate truth? I would suggest that it does not, but neither does it mean it could be true, your duck analogy is exactly what started the flat earth conspiracy theory; the world seems to be flat, therefore it must be! It is after this that things take different turns, you either look at the evidence and analyse the evidence for and against it or, as true conspiracy theorists do, follow their biases

So let's look at your fact. Human market is seen as the place where the virus was first transmitted and you say that the virus was first detected in the streets surrounding the lab (WIV I believe you mean) yet they are fourteen kilometres apart by foot according to Google maps. You back it up by saying that it has had lapses in the past, if you read up on it you would also find out that they added stringent safety measures to protect it including it being constructed to withstand earthquakes even though it is in an area affected by them. Your duck analogy is not quite as good if you weigh the evidence on safety. You then attack the Chinese government to bolster your position, and they are not a particularly touchy feely government are they? Or did they use force to close down the outbreak because they could and it was the best thing to do at the time? It was similar to Mary King's close in Edinburgh where the residents were locked in due to a possible plague outbreak and in both cases I am in agreement, sadly, that it was the only thing to do.

Anyhow, hijacking the post with cheap and meaningless garbage, my sincerest apologies 🙄

The evidence that the virus was in Italy as far back as September came from routine water effluent samples that had been stored and then retrospectively tested when they were looking for clues about how and where the infection started in Italy.. I believe they suspect patient zero in Italy was a Chinese National.

If that is correct it blows China's "official" version of events and timeline right out of the water

Then it becomes the perfect storm, apparantly yes the Chinese hotel workers did come from Wuhan Provence. I don't know what percentage but a lot.

So the Northern Italy ski hotels became the best super spreader you could ever imagine, crowded bars, people from all over Europe mixing cheek by jowl then all taking it back to their own towns and villages.

A lot of early British cases were associated with people returning from ski holidays in Italy and Austria

It also explains why the Scandinavian countries fared so well in the early days of the pandemic. They don't tend to go to the Alps for winter sports, having plenty on their own doorstep  

[Scully]

If it helps, from my experience of Italy, and Venice in particular, most of the hotels and restaurants are Chinese owned but Italian staffed, and ALL the leather goods shops are owned and staffed by Chinese. 🙂

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

it DEFINITELY didnt come from a lab, and the WHO says so , so it must be true 😏

Yes the WHO coming out so strongly that it didn't come from the lab is suspicious in itself. Particularly when the delegates say they weren't allowed free access to examine the lab or its records. Instead they just got a guided tour.

[henry d]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

Yes the WHO coming out so strongly that it didn't come from the lab is suspicious in itself.

🤦‍♂️

[JohnfromUK]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

Surely it was a bat cave, as opposed to a bat lab

I think they were from the belfry.  You get bats there you know.

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think they were from the belfry.  You get bats there you know.

Good thinking. 👍 I’m not sure Robin would be comfortable in a belfry.