Jump to content

Hartlepool?


TIGHTCHOKE
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 111
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

How easy is it for Labour MPs to draw an MP's salary (plus expenses) for sitting back in opposition doing SFA while the Conservatives have been sweating blood dealing with Brexit AND the Pandemic?

Labour were nowhere to be seen, except for the occasional negative comment on the six oclock news

Very lazy, low grade shirkers most of them. They think its a sincure    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Labour had a  bad result, but nothing like as bad as the LibDems - total 349 votes!

Perhaps a new alliance is in the offing, take the two worst parties and make another even worse party.

Not seen hide nor hair of Captain Hindsight to take responsibility for the latest farce.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My dad was a committed Labour man. Trade Union convener at his work etc. But he was heartbroken when they abolished the grammar schools which he correctly saw as the greatest enabler of social mobility that ever existed in this country. He never voted Labour again because, correctly again, he'd finally realised that Labour always ends up hurting the very people they claim to represent. A classic example of this was when Chancellor Denis Healey said "We're going to squeeze the rich until the pips squeak", he achieved no such thing. The rich are usually far smarter than any politician - or have access to those who are - so it was of course ordinary working people on PAYE that got squeezed.

There are lots of people now realising, just like my dad, that voting Labour is at best a wasted vote. Hardly anyone wants to see everything nationalised per "Momentum" and  Corbyn's barmy army. We've become a nation of capitalists who've comprehensively moved on from the hard left. The conservatives may be flawed but they're philosophically far nearer to the proverbial "ordinary folk" than Labour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Westward said:

My dad was a committed Labour man. Trade Union convener at his work etc. But he was heartbroken when they abolished the grammar schools which he correctly saw as the greatest enabler of social mobility that ever existed in this country. He never voted Labour again because, correctly again, he'd finally realised that Labour always ends up hurting the very people they claim to represent. A classic example of this was when Chancellor Denis Healey said "We're going to squeeze the rich until the pips squeak", he achieved no such thing. The rich are usually far smarter than any politician - or have access to those who are - so it was of course ordinary working people on PAYE that got squeezed.

There are lots of people now realising, just like my dad, that voting Labour is at best a wasted vote. Hardly anyone wants to see everything nationalised per "Momentum" and  Corbyn's barmy army. We've become a nation of capitalists who've comprehensively moved on from the hard left. The conservatives may be flawed but they're philosophically far nearer to the proverbial "ordinary folk" than Labour.

Labour will never help those they claim to or they'd have no voter base. They want you all to be subservient to the [their] political elite and rely on the state for fear of starving or whatever. 

I liken their power to that of the church, the more educated you are the less you believe it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What Labour fail to understand is that following the prosperity of the late 1990s and early 2000s “working class” no longer means poor or disadvantaged. 

I turn up on site with 5 As at A Level, a prestigious Degree, a Master’s Degree and professional qualifications driving a clapped out old estate and have for the last 10 years been taking home probably just above minimum wage when you factor in the hours I work and saddled with £10,000s of student debt.

The lads my age on site (and my cousins etc) are skilled tradesmen, labourers etc many left school at 16, have no debt and have been earning good money for 20 years. They have brand new cars, good houses and fancy holidays. They deserve it, they work hard and know their trade. Labour treat proper working people as if they are poor and disadvantaged. 

New Labour was a successful reincarnation for that moment in time, it died when it had achieved its set aims and failed at its others. There needs to be a fresh, positive direction. 

Without needing to paraphrase Churchill the Conservatives have a captive electorate, there will always be wealthy old people with money to protect and socially conservative views. The question for parties such as Labour/SDP/LD is, do we have a vision that is better than the status quo and do people believe in us that we can deliver it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Westward said:

My dad was a committed Labour man. Trade Union convener at his work etc. But he was heartbroken when they abolished the grammar schools which he correctly saw as the greatest enabler of social mobility that ever existed in this country. He never voted Labour again because, correctly again, he'd finally realised that Labour always ends up hurting the very people they claim to represent. A classic example of this was when Chancellor Denis Healey said "We're going to squeeze the rich until the pips squeak", he achieved no such thing. The rich are usually far smarter than any politician - or have access to those who are - so it was of course ordinary working people on PAYE that got squeezed.

There are lots of people now realising, just like my dad, that voting Labour is at best a wasted vote. Hardly anyone wants to see everything nationalised per "Momentum" and  Corbyn's barmy army. We've become a nation of capitalists who've comprehensively moved on from the hard left. The conservatives may be flawed but they're philosophically far nearer to the proverbial "ordinary folk" than Labour.

good post

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that we are heading for a one party state, sadly other the parties, Liberal, Labour et al. have imploded.

I've always liked the European model where a country has a lot of smaller parties and coalition governments are the norm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 07/05/2021 at 06:14, Prospero said:

Labour stopped representing ordinary people, its now a party for minorities and radical left wing nonsense. It's finished. Who cares if he resigns.

I think this is the nub of it.

Labour is no longer the party representative of the indigenous working man. The indigenous working man now sees the Torys to hold his interests in higher regard than Labour, and you know what, that’s probably true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Prospero said:

Angela Rayner, Nandy, Burgon, Zarah Sultana, Thornberry, Corbyn, Dodds, Lammy, Clive Lewis, Jess Phillips, John McDonnell, Long-Bailey, Dawn Butler, Ed Miliband, Diane Abbot et al make Labour completely unelectable. A mixture of race-baiters, communists, class warriors, Remainers, racists, anti semitic, big mouth nightmares. Long may they be members of the Labour party!

100% again.

On Facey there’s always calls for the likes of Diane Abbot to go - leave her there, let the world see what one of the mainstay planks of the Labour Party looks like 😆

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There’s been some really good posts on here.

The world has changed and as has been said we’re all capitalists now. Even the communist Chinese are capitalists. People don’t want to be held back, they want the chance to crack on and make some money, keep as much as possible and improve their  personal circumstances. Red flags, socialist worker, shop stewards and unions - that’s 50 years ago.

However, and going back to the excellent Grammar school post above (being a major link to social mobility) the only way we can change politics is to pay MPs a decent whack.

Pay MP’s a proper salary and you will stand a chance of attracting the cream - not those propped up by unions or seeking financial support from other party donors or looking to get their noses into the trough.

Reduce the number of MPs (for a small nation we have too many) and pay an MP say £300k pa salary and there’s a chance ordinary people with talent who come from nothing will get involved.

If you’re super talented and come from a normal / real world existence say off a council estate and you are on a career path to earn £300k a year as a doctor, dentist, lawyer, CEO would you pack that in for sub £100k as an MP? And those that do, you have to question why they do that - social conscience? Not in this day and age.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Reduce the number of MPs (for a small nation we have too many) and pay an MP say £300k pa salary

I have no problem with that. 

I would add that we have a ridiculously large 'upper house' that needs trimming heavily to maybe 100 members.

Personally - feel that there should be an 'entry requirement' for either level of representation, though how to implement that is a major question.  What I would be seeking to do is to ensure that the elected representatives have valuable experience of 'life' before that can enter politics.  By that I mean someone who has worked and contributed (at any level job from humble low paid to high fliers).  Exceptions would be made for the disabled - though in fairness - anyone who wants to be a representative would need to be able to 'work' and many disabled do work.  If you have never been able to work, it is quite hard to see how you could be an effective representative  for the vast majority who do/have worked (in my personal view).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is Labour for you, on Breakfast TV this morning

The Shadow Home Secretary, Nick Thomas-Symonds (have you ever even heard of him, could you pick him out from a picture?) Where has he been hiding the past year?

He brushed aside the Hartlepool result blaming covid for not being able to hold meetings.

Then he said Labour needs to get back to tackling injustice and tackling inequality

Nothing said about real political issues like easing lockdown, reinflating the economy, sorting out Brexit. immigration, jobs, fishing etc

The truth is Labour is not a political party anymore, its a namby pamby Civil Rights Organisation only interested in its own woke agenda campaining for people who are facing injustice. What ever that means? 

Edited by Vince Green
Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

This is Labour for you, on Breakfast TV this morning

The Shadow Home Secretary, Nick Thomas-Symonds (have you ever even heard of him, could you pick him out from a picture?) Where has he been hiding the past year?

He brushed aside the Hartlepool result blaming covid for not being able to hold meetings.

Then he said Labour needs to get back to tackling injustice and tackling inequality

Nothing said about real political issues like easing lockdown, reinflating the economy, sorting out Brexit. immigration, jobs, fishing etc

The truth is Labour is not a political party anymore, its a namby pamby Civil Rights Organisation only interested in its own woke agenda campaining for people who are facing injustice. What ever that means? 

Contrast that to the comments from the now ex shadow defense secretary who's assessment I think was bang on:

https://policyexchange.org.uk/hartlepool-is-a-wake-up-call-for-my-party/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

I think this is the nub of it.

Labour is no longer the party representative of the indigenous working man. The indigenous working man now sees the Torys to hold his interests in higher regard than Labour, and you know what, that’s probably true.

That’s right - and in strong Leave-voting constituencies, they will remember that the Tories did indeed do what they set out to do (we may be reaping the whirlwind now, but fair play, they did what was asked of them).

Most interesting commentary out of the last few days came from the Mayor of Teesside, who spoke absolute sense on the importance of elected officers getting on and doing what they say they will do. He stood on a “Conservative” ticket, but is certainly not a Thatcherite Tory. He was picking and choosing “left” as well as “right” policy positions to improve the Teesside area. That’s what his electorate wanted and that what he stood to deliver.

As others have said traditional class and philosophical divides over “Conservative” or “Labour” are far less important to voters today than they were in the past.

LS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I shall attempt to oblige;


Starmer warned of prospect of leadership challenge over summer
Leftwing Labour MPs hit out after party loses two key electoral battles in north-east England


Sir Keir Starmer is likely to face a leadership challenge in the summer after Labour’s resounding defeat in the parliamentary by-election in Hartlepool raised questions about his strategy, leftwing MPs warned on Friday.

The leader of Britain’s main opposition party, who has sought to return Labour to the centre ground of UK politics, is coming under pressure to tack to the left after the Tories also retained the Tees Valley mayoralty.

Hartlepool and Tees Valley are in north-east England, former Labour heartlands where Boris Johnson made significant inroads at the 2019 general election.

Leftwing Labour MPs said there would be an attempt to wrest control from Starmer within months should he refuse to adopt a more radical policy programme — and if he loses another by-election expected soon in Batley and Spen in West Yorkshire.

“I think this phase of the internal battle will be focused on trying to force [Starmer] to change direction, especially on policy,” said one senior leftwing MP. “But if they don’t and then we lose Batley and Spen and things are looking bad in the polls over the summer . . . [a leadership challenge] becomes likely.”

There was shock in the Starmer team at the extent of the defeat in Hartlepool, which swung from a 3,595 Labour majority to a Conservative one of 6,940.

“Everyone is furious,” said one of his inner circle. A Labour MP added: “I’ve never felt so despondent.” 

Starmer, who became leader just over a year ago, hoped that after Brexit, Labour could win back blue-collar workers who had deserted the Remain-leaning party.


Britain’s prime minister Boris Johnson and newly elected MP for Hartlepool Jill Mortimer. Johnson has promised to ‘level-up’ what he calls left-behind areas. © Reuters
Many Leave-supporting working class voters in former Labour heartlands were angry with the party at the 2019 election, and some defected to the Conservatives.

In recent weeks such voters in north-east England sounded apathetic about Labour, according to one shadow minister. “The anger has gone, because we are no longer a threat, and almost no longer relevant,” said the MP.

One Tory who campaigned in the Hartlepool by-election said: “The Labour party doesn’t understand the voters any more. They still assume they will just naturally come back.”

There are ominous parallels in the Conservatives’ continued electoral success in north-east England with how Labour’s once large-scale support in Scotland switched in significant part to the Scottish National party.

Another shadow minister said the Hartlepool by-election result “was the day in which Labour finally discovered it has lost the white working class vote”.

“It feels like traditional Labour voters are leaving in a fundamental way. It has already happened in Scotland and it’s now happening in England in the same way.”

Labour has only won three general elections in the past 40 years, each one under former leader Tony Blair. Then the party forged an electoral coalition between working class voters in manufacturing areas and liberal, urban graduates.

Boris’s message is socially conservative and fiscally leftwing — which is appealing in a lot of former Labour heartlands


At the 2019 election, Johnson’s Conservatives swept up many of the blue-collar Eurosceptic workers. 

As prime minister, Johnson has promised to “level-up” what he calls left-behind areas such as Hartlepool, and has poured investment into Tees Valley, which re-elected Ben Houchen as its Conservative mayor on Friday.

Johnson’s upbeat message about the potential for change — glossing over how the Tories have been in power at Westminster for 11 years — has struck a chord with many voters in down-at-heel towns.

“They voted for us, the people who have been in charge for more than a decade, for change,” said one Conservative campaigner.

Dehenna Davison, the first Tory MP for Bishop Auckland, elected at the 2019 election, said Johnson’s optimism was core to his appeal in Labour’s former heartlands. “When Boris comes along talking optimistically about equal opportunities no matter where you were born . . . that really resonates with people,” she added.

Meanwhile the Johnson government has borrowed hundreds of billions of pounds to keep the economy afloat during the coronavirus pandemic, which has left Starmer’s team struggling for a rival policy narrative.

“Boris’s message is socially conservative and fiscally leftwing, which is appealing in a lot of former Labour heartlands — and indeed the whole country,” said one senior Tory.

But the more elections Johnson wins on promises of bringing tangible improvement to people’s lives, the increasing pressure there will be to make good in his pledges.

Houchen said his success in Tees Valley was a template for how the Tories can win the next general election. 

“When I won in 2017 Labour thought it was a fluke, that I wouldn’t deliver on my promise to our local airport and save it from closure,” he added. “They thought I would fail and everything would go back to normal . . . what Labour didn’t realise, and still don’t, is people don’t care about left or right and the latest whispers from Westminster, they care about things being delivered.”

Some senior Labour figures close to Starmer believe the election results reflect a moment of national exhilaration after Johnson’s successful vaccination programme, which could wear off in months.


Eight key takeaways of the UK election results

They also argue that Hartlepool was a freak result because the town would have been won by the Tories in 2019 were it not for Nigel Farage’s Brexit party splitting the Eurosceptic vote. 

“Events can be shocking but not surprising,” said one Starmer ally. “We knew there would be a vaccine bounce from around January. Not everything that happens is a referendum on the Labour party.”

Starmer, who is expected to shuffle his shadow cabinet in the summer, told the BBC he would “reconnect and rebuild” after the losses.

But a big Labour row erupted within hours of the Hartlepool result, as allies of Jeremy Corbyn, the party’s former leftwing leader, tore into Starmer.

John McDonnell, shadow chancellor under Corbyn, said Labour had gone into the by-election without a positive narrative given Starmer’s lack of policy promises.

“The Labour party went into this election campaign . . . without putting a campaign based on what you wanted to do or what sort of society you wanted to build, or the policies you want to advocate,” he added. “We should never, ever, do that again.”

McDonnell said Starmer should be given a chance to continue, however, given the Hartlepool result was partly due to “overspill” from Brexit.

Labour rightwingers said the defeat proved Starmer must accelerate towards the centre ground. Phil Wilson, former MP for Sedgefield, Blair’s old constituency, said: “The overhang from the Corbyn era is still there.”

If Labour leftwingers try to defenestrate Starmer this year, they need 40 MPs to call for a leadership election.

One shadow cabinet member insisted Starmer was “untouchable” given the lack of alternative big-hitters in the parliamentary Labour party. “There is no one else,” he said. “You can’t give up on him.”
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...