Scotland SNP gains.

[stuartyboy]

Just now, johnphilip said:

Some in Scotland  may want independence,  and I accept  that , but the SNP party are not the ones to run an independent  country . They can not run a devolved  country as it is , they are for ever hand back powers to Westminster,   

 

I agree. I would not want SNP to run an Independent Country on their present form

5 minutes ago, harkom said:

 hope that you do not mind me asking.... but I would appreciate a list of your references (independent/ academic) that make a compelling case for Indy.

If you don't mind waiting, I will gladly get them for you but not tonight as have things on.

[Lampwick]

38 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

Not got much in the way of rice resources unfortunately 😕 

I don't agree with wanting back into Europe and thats a long discussion for another day. However, Scotland is loaded with resources 

How come us nasty English haven’t stolen it all then? 
I wish you all the best with your Independence! 

[stuartyboy]

5 minutes ago, markm said:

Well fill ya boots fella and good luck to you and everyone else.
 

Ironically, move away from the borders and there is such an anti English feeling it’s unreal. 
 

What Scotland doesn’t realise is move away from Northumberland and Cumbria, a lot of the population want shot of you (and a border). 
 

I find independence sad, but inevitable. You make your bed and lie in it.  The pessimist in me hopes you fail big time. 

Thank you for your sentiments, thats very big of you.

If Independence comes, I think Scotland would do well. If not, its down to us

5 minutes ago, harkom said:

stu..boy... I will now defer to the wisdom of G Carlin..... " never argue with .....  only beat you with experience".

Have a good weekend.

Its funny how people run out of arguments and resort to insults. Actually happened very early on in the thread.

Have a good weekend too Sir

[harkom]

38 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

don't agree with wanting back into Europe and thats a long discussion for another day. However, Scotland is loaded with resources 

If.... but ...only ...if ...you do not agree with submission of scotland to rule from brussels ...why would you want to vote for krankie & co? I just don't get that.🤫

[stuartyboy]

Just now, harkom said:

If.... but ...only ...if ...you do not agree with submission of scotland to rule from brussels ...why would you want to vote for krankie & co? I just don't get that.🤫

Because a vote for SNP is a vote to try Independence and the chance to get a different party in later with different views on Europe. Maybe its the lesser of two evils 😁

[harkom]

3 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

ts funny how people run out of arguments and resort to insults. Actually happened very early on in the thread

not directed as a barb.... more of a a bit of friendly advice.

[stuartyboy]

4 minutes ago, Lampwick said:

How come us nasty English haven’t stolen it all then? 
I wish you all the best with your Independence! 

Don't be so hard, you English are not all nasty.

Thank you

Just now, harkom said:

not directed as a barb.... more of a a bit of friendly advice.

Not taken as anything else as a friendly argument and banter.

If I was short with anyone else, I do apologise. I was bombarded with notifications and trying to reply to them all. 

Will see you all at the border, I will be the one standing with the pitch fork wearing my kilt shouting 'Freeeedddooommmmmm...

[harkom]

Just now, stuartyboy said:

Because a vote for SNP is a vote to try Independence and the chance to get a different party in later with different views on Europe. Maybe its the lesser of two evils 😁

So..., what you advocate ..is.....what is on offer....is not what is on offer to YOU....the voter, the mug electorate. Suck it UP you punters at the ballot box....er?? wwwhich  X .. goes where?? *** have i voted for??

[stuartyboy]

4 minutes ago, harkom said:

So..., what you advocate ..is.....what is on offer....is not what is on offer to YOU....the voter, the mug electorate. Suck it UP you punters at the ballot box....er?? wwwhich  X .. goes where?? *** have i voted for??

So who else do you vote for?

Tories, Scotland hasn't voted for a Tory Government for decades but still get lumbered with one. They are generally disliked here.

Labour. Useless.

Green party. Pro independent as well

Lib Democrats, no thanks

Etc etc

No political party is ideal. Its a case of voting who is the best for your individual reasons. For the majority of Scots, its SNP

[harkom]

Stu ... may I recommend useful source of reference on the historical aspect of The Union.... BY an independent viewer, well ...by an American.

The Scottish Enlightenment..... the Scots' Invention of the Modern World

by Arthur Herman

 

2 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

For the majority of Scots, its SNP

Really?

[stuartyboy]

11 minutes ago, harkom said:

Stu ... may I recommend useful source of reference on the historical aspect of The Union.... BY an independent viewer, well ...by an American.

The Scottish Enlightenment..... the Scots' Invention of the Modern World

by Arthur Herman

 

Really?

Thank you for the recommendation, I will read up on that as I have other pro Union papers/books.

12 minutes ago, harkom said:

Stu ... may I recommend useful source of reference on the historical aspect of The Union.... BY an independent viewer, well ...by an American.

The Scottish Enlightenment..... the Scots' Invention of the Modern World

by Arthur Herman

 

Really?

Sorry, the last piece of my reply was worded clumsily and rushed. Majority of Scots didn't vote SNP. I meant they where the majority party. Couple of years back, I think it was 45% of the vote or something 

[clangerman]

8 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

So who else do you vote for?

Tories, Scotland hasn't voted for a Tory Government for decades but still get lumbered with one. They are generally disliked here.

Labour. Useless.

Green party. Pro independent as well

Lib Democrats, no thanks

Etc etc

No political party is ideal. Its a case of voting who is the best for your individual reasons. For the majority of Scots, its SNP

who else? someone who can remember who paid for their wallpaper would be a good start lol 

[ratchers]

Come on this is simple, The Scots hate the English for historic reasons, nothing to do with politics.

Don't dress it up for any other reasons.

[stuartyboy]

11 minutes ago, clangerman said:

who else? someone who can remember who paid for their wallpaper would be a good start lol 

 😄   

[stuartyboy]

7 minutes ago, ratchers said:

Come on this is simple, The Scots hate the English for historic reasons, nothing to do with politics.

Don't dress it up for any other reasons.

Now that is a lot of ****.

I genuinely don't know anyone who hates the English. And I mean that. In all the years I've been alive, and all the folk I've met. No one I have ever known has hated the English. A lot are pro English and a lot who like to take the mickey out of our Southern friends but in a friendly way. Like we do with each other over religion,  football or whatever. 

Its simply a case for some Scots that they want Independence as they can see the benefits. But likewise, a lot want to stay as part of the Union. But what it isn't, is some kind of deep rooted hatred stemming from hundreds of years ago.

The British public have largely forgiven the Japanese for horrendous atrocities committed a relatively short time ago so am sure us Scots have forgiven the English for any naughty behavior 300 years ago. Apart from when England play any football team of any nationality 😉

 

[Mice!]

6 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

Like we do with each other over religion,  football or whatever. 

Are you sure about that?

When I lived in Arbroath many of the folk there were absolutely great, but religion was still an issue, is the old firm derby about football or religion? as was a serious dislike of the English. 

I still laugh at the thought of Scotland going solo,  if everything North of the border was running great, Education & Health services for instance then it would be understandable but it's far from it, but shouting for independence obviously sounds good to many so they vote accordingly. 

I'm sure many Scott's will suffer if independence ever happens. 

[stuartyboy]

The old firm has deep seated hatred for some. Its more a religious issue that is demonstrated through the Old Firm. But its a small, no tiny, idiotic minority on both sides that actually care about it. Most folk aren't interested or only see it as a light hearted way to wind up colleagues or friends.

Same could be said of any anti English sentiment that I'm sorry that you may have received. Its not the overwhelming view of Scots that the English are an issue. And as I've said, I've yet to meet anyone who has genuine anti English feelings beyond the usual 'banter'.

Yes, there's issues up here that need addressing. As I'm sure there are plenty of issues down South. Plenty of smaller countries with far less resources are doing well independently and thriving. 

I find it strange that the folk who wanted independence from Europe and the greater ability to self govern seem so reluctant to believe that Scotland can go alone. 

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, stuartyboy said:

Scotland reportedly has 96% of the crude oil, 81% of untapped coal reserves, 65% of natural gas, 62% of timber production, 92% of hydro electric power, 40% of wind/wave electricity, 90% of all freshwater, 60 % of fish landed etc etc etc 

Feel free to build your hard border 😉 

That is so not true, the oil is running out and becoming much more expensive to extract. Plus its not a fuel grade oil its a lubricating light oil which is much less valuable now that cars run on synthetic oils. Besides, most North Sea oil is not in Scottish or even British waters. Its far out in the North Sea. It is held by International Treaty not territorial rights.

Scotland was not a signatory to the treaty so have no retrospective claim to the oil. Unless you choose to believe Alex Salmond Good luck with that, cough cough 

Scottish coal is scagg (thats a real word) it means it has a lot of sand content and is lower grade. Best coal in the world is under South Wales and they are sitting on a thousand years  worth at least of prime coal. Despite that the popular view , is its not considered economically viable to mine high grade Welsh coal in volume. So where does that leave Scottish coal 

Its already been rather tragically proved that Scottish fish is too expensive to transport fresh to UK markets but we can hope they will develop strategies to market it

I don't wish bad things for Scotland, my mother's family came from Dumfries although as one idiot pointed out they were Campbells so couldn't be considered Scottish

Its just that the SNP and all are telling lies and people are believing the lies and it will cost them dearly

Nicola would rather be Queen Nicola of a country in dire financial straits than see it prosper as part of the union.

Alex Salmond quoted Robert the Bruce, sorry lets run that again  Robert du Bruc

a French speaking Norman, hardly a Scottish patriot?

Scotland wants to break from Westminster but be ruled by Brussels??? Really????

***, they deserve everything they get, in buckets

Edited May 7, 2021 by Vince Green

[Mice!]

19 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

find it strange that the folk who wanted independence from Europe and the greater ability to self govern seem so reluctant to believe that Scotland can go alone. 

The first thing always comes to how will they pay for things, oil is always mentioned but the oil isn't Scotland's.

The fact we never accepted the Euro over the pound was massive and The UK getting away from Europe is significantly different from Scotland breaking from the union, I still think that's the issue,  being ruled from England. 

25 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

Same could be said of any anti English sentiment that I'm sorry that you may have received. Its not the overwhelming view of Scots that the English are an issue. And as I've said, I've yet to meet anyone who has genuine anti English feelings beyond the usual 'banter'.

Most was always banter and given both ways but many were obsessed with London, which might as well be Monaco to most Northerners. 

28 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

The old firm has deep seated hatred for some. Its more a religious issue that is demonstrated through the Old Firm. But its a small, no tiny, idiotic minority on both sides that actually care about it. Most folk aren't interested or only see it as a light hearted way to wind up colleagues or friends.

It was strange for sure, guaranteed fighting outside the pubs, lads in work falling out over old seated issues. 

30 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

Yes, there's issues up here that need addressing. As I'm sure there are plenty of issues down South. Plenty of smaller countries with far less resources are doing well independently and thriving. 

No issues down here everything is rosy 🤔😳

Curious which smaller countries are thriving? Guessing they will be sunny places 😅

[button]

Plenty say Scotland can make a success of independence but when asked how, bit like a Holyrood enquiry, there is no straight truthful answer forthcoming, funny that or is it because there isn't one?

The SNP will do anything to cause divide and quite frankly they are a national embarrassment, all the promises in the election campaign, why have they not been doing it for the last 14 years? Shameful

NS critised the UK Government for bailing out the Banks in 2008! Conveniently forgot to mention the two with the biggest issues were HBOS and RBS!

I can not believe anyone falls for anything they say!

Edited May 7, 2021 by button

[stuartyboy]

19 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

That is so not true, the oil is running out and becoming much more expensive to extract. Plus its not a fuel grade oil its a lubricating light oil which is much less valuable now that cars run on synthetic oils. Besides, most North Sea oil is not in Scottish or even British waters. Its far out in the North Sea. It is held by International Treaty not territorial rights.

Scotland was not a signatory to the treaty so have no retrospective claim to the oil. Unless you choose to believe Alex Salmond Good luck with that, cough cough 

Scottish coal is scagg (thats a real word) it means it has a lot of sand content and is lower grade. Best coal in the world is under South Wales and they are sitting on a thousand years  worth at least of prime coal. Despite that the popular view , is its not considered economically viable to mine high grade Welsh coal in volume. So where does that leave Scottish coal 

Its already been rather tragically proved that Scottish fish is too expensive to transport fresh to UK markets but we can hope they will develop strategies to market it

I don't wish bad things for Scotland, my mother's family came from Dumfries although as one idiot pointed out they were Campbells so couldn't be considered Scottish

Its just that the SNP and all are telling lies and people are believing the lies and it will cost them dearly

Nicola would rather be Queen Nicola of a country in dire financial straits than see it prosper as part of the union.

Alex Salmond quoted Robert the Bruce, sorry lets run that again  Robert du Bruc

a French speaking Norman, hardly a Scottish patriot?

Nothing I've said 'is not true'. Yes the oil is running out and is thought to be poorer grade but under the Continental shelf order, over 90% of the UKs oil is in Scottish waters using the median line.

Everything else you mention is good input and appreciated within the debate but does not contradict my very first post on the subject.

14 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Curious which smaller countries are thriving? Guessing they will be sunny places 😅

Denmark, Lithuania, Norway, Ireland, Croatia, Slovakia etc all independent countries with similar sized population. Some with natural resources, most without. They will have their problems but doing ok.

[stuartyboy]

Last point for me. 

People say Scotland can't be successful as an Independent country. They may be correct but I don't think they are.

Why would England, Wales and Northern Ireland not be glad to see the back of us then? I would be if I was from England and Scotland was such a drain on resources and money. Is it possible that under the right leadership we could make a success of independence and use the natural resources, intuinity and industry that we have to be successful and embarass the rest of you guys 😉

Have a good weekend 😗

[Gordon R]

The figures cited about Scottish oil are laughable - straight from the Jimmy Krankie "Strong for Scotland" children's book.

If Scotland is so wealthy, why do they not ask for the Barnett formula to be scrapped?

I have a number of friends in Scotland and do not wish the country to leave the UK, but there does come a point when I think - let them go and sink. It is tempting, but the people deserve better.

[hod]

This thread itself answers the question why folk would want to vote snp/independence. 

[Mice!]

45 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

have a number of friends in Scotland and do not wish the country to leave the UK, but there does come a point when I think - let them go and sink. It is tempting, but the people deserve better.

That's it isn't it.

Most of us won't give Scotland a thought most of the time, then we hear how much they want independence,  problem is it likely won't work and then what??