Steel shot and Damascus

[Mr.C]

 

I have a Damascus barrelled 12 bore, nitro proofed, almost nothing and improved not much choke. Can someone please explain to me why it is that I can use plastic wad lead carts but not plastic wad standard steel . I am prepared to open them to cylinder/cylinder if that's what it takes but I'd rather not. I know this has probably been done to death so just post a link if you can be bothered to explain it all again. 

Thanks

Paul 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Mr.C

[Scully]

I don’t know who’s told you that you can’t, because if it’s nitro proofed, then you can. 🤷‍♂️

[London Best]

And the Danes have been doing exactly that for twenty years.

[Rob85]

I think it's in some of the publications that they say not to use it in Damascus barrels. I think it's because they expect them to be older and weaker than modern barrels but being honest if I had a very open choked Damascus barrelled gun then I would go on ahead with light steel cartridges. Could be a cracking decoying gun

[Mr.C]

8 hours ago, Scully said:

I don’t know who’s told you that you can’t, because if it’s nitro proofed, then you can. 🤷‍♂️

Almost everything that I've so far read. 

@London Best I have seen an article with reference to Danes using Damascus but it pretty vague and only a short paragraph. It was why I posed this question.

I'll go have a look for some light 2.5“s

Thank you gents 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Mr.C

[Feltwad]

My personal view is that   Damascus  barrels are to soft a material for steel  and would  soon  wear  maybe if the shot were in a special adapted wad   then it would leave the barrel like a ball which the barrel would be true cylinder , in the early  choked guns the barrels were stamped {Not  For Ball} .For me Damascus is too soft for steel , in fact it s soft enough you can whittle it with a knife so what would the barrel walls be like with steel .

Feltwad

[Scully]

7 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

My personal view is that   Damascus  barrels are to soft a material for steel  and would  soon  wear  maybe if the shot were in a special adapted wad   then it would leave the barrel like a ball which the barrel would be true cylinder , in the early  choked guns the barrels were stamped {Not  For Ball} .For me Damascus is too soft for steel , in fact it s soft enough you can whittle it with a knife so what would the barrel walls be like with steel .

Feltwad

The steel in a steel shot cartridge doesn’t come into contact with the barrel at all, it is enclosed in the wad ‘cup’ until the wad leaves the barrel. That is why the cup is designed in the way it is. 
If that cup fails and steel shot travels down a barrel outside that cup, then the barrels will be scored, steel shot proofed or not. 
Steel shot proofing is about pressure, and if the Damascus has been proofed for nitro it is perfectly capable of shooting steel. 

[Feltwad]

22 minutes ago, Scully said:

The steel in a steel shot cartridge doesn’t come into contact with the barrel at all, it is enclosed in the wad ‘cup’ until the wad leaves the barrel. That is why the cup is designed in the way it is. 
If that cup fails and steel shot travels down a barrel outside that cup, then the barrels will be scored, steel shot proofed or not. 
Steel shot proofing is about pressure, and if the Damascus has been proofed for nitro it is perfectly capable of shooting steel. 

Yes that what I said if it was in a special wad  but would   that be only in a true cylinder  and not a full choked barrel  has most early  Damascus barrels  were stamped  [not for ball }. This would be nitro  if it was black powder it would be different 

Feltwad

[JohnfromUK]

2 hours ago, Mr.C said:

I'll go have a look for some light 2.5“s

They are quite few and far between as yet.  Steel is less dense than lead, so takes up more space - and getting a useful load in a 2 1/2" case and with a full cup wad limits options.  I do know that there are now some available, but not sure who from - possibly Eley or Gamebore?

[Mr.C]

I will have he chokes double checked. My barrels were/are stamped not for ball.

[Scully]

52 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

Yes that what I said if it was in a special wad  but would   that be only in a true cylinder  and not a full choked barrel  has most early  Damascus barrels  were stamped  [not for ball }. This would be nitro  if it was black powder it would be different 

Feltwad

ALL steel shot cartridges are designed so the load is completely cupped in plastic to avoid it coming into contact with the barrel walls. As I said, It doesn’t matter whether the gun is steel shot proofed or not, if the wad fails then the barrels can be ruined. 
Current advice states that Standard steel shot can be used in ANY nitro proofed gun, and if the OP’s gun has very little choke as he states, then he’s good to go. That’s all there is to it. 

[Vince Green]

Also very few "Damascus steel" barrels are actually Damascus Steel. Its an almost universally misused expression. The vast majority will be plain laminated barrels and the question then arises what were they laminated from. Old nails salvaged from ships that were being broken up was commonly used, as were old barrel hoops but the key thing is its nearly all recycled.

None of this is a problem but it creates an unknown, what is the composition. Unlike modern steel barrels laminate barrels wear thin with use showing just how soft they can be. They take the pressure because they are wound like a spring and flex

3 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Vince Green

[London Best]

Barrels were stamped ‘Not For Ball’ when gunmakers commonly started choke boring. The wording was only used from 1875 until 1887. Then the proof houses seem to have decided it was not necessary.

[Walker570]

I have a damascus barrel 16 gauge and I am quite happy to shoot bismuth. I certainly will not be putting steel through it. The left hand barrel has a fair amount of choke as many a distant pheasant has discovered.  I have shot a fair amount of bismuth through it and it performs very well.  If I wanted a gun for shooting clays or to be honest for shooting decoyed pigeon/crow then I would not be taking my damascus barrel 16.  It's a gun that deserves a special outing.  Horses for courses.

[Saltings]

i wouldnt be in a hurry to put steel shot in anything other than a modern gun proofed for hp or superior steel   with the right xtra thick wad  dew to setback perforation and a faster load an additional rap inside the wad to stop barrel scoring  the pressure spikes are different for steel and lead as different powders used   if in doubt talk to a gunsmith like John Wiseman Cannock  or similar       not a gun seller      get it  wrong   what bits can you afford to loose       do not wreck a nice gun  to save pennies  shoot what it was designed for and enjoy          buy a modern hatsan or similar  cheap steel proof and throw away after it dont work   i am always weary  as a friend lost part of his left hand using a baikal single barrel       barrels thicker than anything  on the market         with about an inch of snow from a stumble not noticed  froze up       about  an hour later at first light  a duck  kaboom  and screams                buy the right tool for the job you don't buy a hacksaw when you need a chainsaw 

[DUNKS]

6 hours ago, Saltings said:

i wouldnt be in a hurry to put steel shot in anything other than a modern gun proofed for hp or superior steel   with the right xtra thick wad  dew to setback perforation and a faster load an additional rap inside the wad to stop barrel scoring  the pressure spikes are different for steel and lead as different powders used   if in doubt talk to a gunsmith like John Wiseman Cannock  or similar       not a gun seller      get it  wrong   what bits can you afford to loose       do not wreck a nice gun  to save pennies  shoot what it was designed for and enjoy          buy a modern hatsan or similar  cheap steel proof and throw away after it dont work   i am always weary  as a friend lost part of his left hand using a baikal single barrel       barrels thicker than anything  on the market         with about an inch of snow from a stumble not noticed  froze up       about  an hour later at first light  a duck  kaboom  and screams                buy the right tool for the job you don't buy a hacksaw when you need a chainsaw 

And the connection between Damascus barrels,  steel shot and snow in a barrel is?

[Scully]

6 hours ago, Saltings said:

i wouldnt be in a hurry to put steel shot in anything other than a modern gun proofed for hp or superior steel   with the right xtra thick wad  dew to setback perforation and a faster load an additional rap inside the wad to stop barrel scoring  the pressure spikes are different for steel and lead as different powders used   if in doubt talk to a gunsmith like John Wiseman Cannock  or similar       not a gun seller      get it  wrong   what bits can you afford to loose       do not wreck a nice gun  to save pennies  shoot what it was designed for and enjoy          buy a modern hatsan or similar  cheap steel proof and throw away after it dont work   i am always weary  as a friend lost part of his left hand using a baikal single barrel       barrels thicker than anything  on the market         with about an inch of snow from a stumble not noticed  froze up       about  an hour later at first light  a duck  kaboom  and screams                buy the right tool for the job you don't buy a hacksaw when you need a chainsaw 

Have you read the OP? There is next to no choke in the barrels and they are nitro proofed. 
Therefore it is perfectly capable of handling steel shot.

I’m not too sure to which ‘extra thick’ wads you refer, nor what a snow blocked barrel has to do with steel shot? Block ANY barrel ( Baikel or otherwise ) and fire a shot through it and the results won’t be favourable. 
Only using the gun for the type of cartridges for which it was designed will eventually render the gun obsolete; it’s continued use probably being the reason it was proved for nitro when it was originally proved for BP. 
 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Scully

[enfieldspares]

On 11/05/2021 at 07:33, Scully said:

Steel shot proofing is about pressure, and if the Damascus has been proofed for nitro it is perfectly capable of shooting steel. 

Yes. But I'd also add that steel shot doesn't compress so that is why it is/was advised no more that XXX or YYY choke AND (which I believe far more of a longer term issue) that older guns with iron rather than steel actions will suffer damage to that action and/or come "off the face" more quickly. Yes no choke = no problem (supposedly) but the concern about accelrated wear and tear to the action still remains IMHO.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, enfieldspares said:

that older guns with iron rather than steel actions will suffer damage to that action and/or come "off the face" more quickly.

Are the pressures generated with 'standard' steel significantly higher than lead?  (I know HP steel is much higher).

The reason for asking is that a standard UK (older) game gun was proof for 2 1/2" cases and 1 1/8oz loads (or 3 tons per square inch or 850 bar depending on date of proof).  IF we are saying that standard steel is OK (and I believe a few 2 1/2" cartridges are now available) - then presumably they meet these conditions?

That being the case - I would not expect undue stress on the action/jointing.  Am I missing something?

[Scully]

22 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Yes. But I'd also add that steel shot doesn't compress so that is why it is/was advised no more that XXX or YYY choke AND (which I believe far more of a longer term issue) that older guns with iron rather than steel actions will suffer damage to that action and/or come "off the face" more quickly. Yes no choke = no problem (supposedly) but the concern about accelrated wear and tear to the action still remains IMHO.

As far as I’m aware, Damascus barrelled shotguns have steel actions. 
The gun in question has next to no choke and is nitro proofed. I really don’t know how much clearer I can make it? 

[enfieldspares]

Some shotguns from before the end of the 19th Century will indeed have actions made from iron or if not "low carbon" steel (sometimes also known as "mild steel") and not better grades of steel that have more carbon.

Iron (and low carbon steel) being cheaper to machine as well as less expensive to buy. Just the same as some guns will have chopper lump barrels and others mere brazed dovetail lumps. Or use very plain walnut.

Edited May 15, 2021 by enfieldspares

[Old farrier]

Or you could take your gun to a gunsmith and get a definitive answer

you could try here for piece of mind 

[Scully]

39 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Or you could take your gun to a gunsmith and get a definitive answer

you could try here for piece of mind 

A nice little money spinner right there! 

I wonder what ‘recommendations of required work ‘ for HP steel entails? 🙂

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

Some shotguns from before the end of the 19th Century will indeed have actions made from iron or if not "low carbon" steel (sometimes also known as "mild steel") and not better grades of steel that have more carbon.

Iron (and low carbon steel) being cheaper to machine as well as less expensive to buy. Just the same as some guns will have chopper lump barrels and others mere brazed dovetail lumps. Or use very plain walnut.

The gun has been nitro proofed and has next to no choke. 🤷‍♂️

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

A nice little money spinner right there! 

I wonder what ‘recommendations of required work ‘ for HP steel entails? 🙂

The gun has been nitro proofed and has next to no choke. 🤷‍♂️

Very cynical of you 

there’s a lot of confusion about this and a service is being provided to cater for it 

who’s opinion on safety and suitability af cartridges should we take

a gunmaker who’s actually seeing the gun and charging for a comprehensive report 

or my mate down the pub 

[enfieldspares]

Passing a one off proof test is no guarantee ever of the longevity of a gun nor how likely it is that brand X or brand Y of cartridge will take it "off the face" through accelerated stress and strain. As I've said it is the stress and strain from even "standard steel" cartridges on the action perhaps more so than the OP's concern about his barrels that should concern also concern him.

That a gun passed proof merely means that on that one day it achieved that one off result in exactly the same manner that a car passing its MoT is no protection against continual "hard driving" causing wear and tear. As is the continual and exclusive use of only 1 1/4 ounce lead Alphamax in a 70mm chambered 6 1/2 lbs side by side game gun isn't a sensible long term diet for it. 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by enfieldspares