Steel shot and Damascus

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

A nice little money spinner right there! 

I note that the Birmingham Proof House recommends re-proof of any firearm last proved before 1954.

https://www.gunproof.com/downloads/standard-and-superior-proof-marks

I will not be submitting my older guns for reproof unless needed for legal reasons (which none do at present)

[Scully]

18 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Very cynical of you 

there’s a lot of confusion about this and a service is being provided to cater for it 

who’s opinion on safety and suitability af cartridges should we take

a gunmaker who’s actually seeing the gun and charging for a comprehensive report 

or my mate down the pub 

I suppose it depends on how much your mate down the pub is going to charge you for a needless service. 
What service can Purdey offer other than to ultimately advise you to submit your gun for steel shot proofing?
They can tell you that your gun will be fine with standard steel, but we know that already. They can tell you that you can shove standard steel through any choke, but that’s common knowledge also. 
What they won’t do is tell you that you can put HP steel through your nitro proofed gun ( even though you can ) without first having it proofed for thus ( and paying for it ) and thereby proving that you didn’t need to! 🙂

Like I said, nice little earner. 

[benbobailey]

Hello, another point to consider when using steel is wad type. Many game shoots insist on fibre wad only or certainly no plastic wad.  Just a point to consider when purchasing steel cartridges. At the moment, I won't use steel in my older British guns and will use modern steel proof gun when required. I will re-evaluate my position when all is clearer in the industry.regards

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, benbobailey said:

Hello, another point to consider when using steel is wad type. Many game shoots insist on fibre wad only or certainly no plastic wad.  Just a point to consider when purchasing steel cartridges. At the moment, I won't use steel in my older British guns and will use modern steel proof gun when required.

Correct.  My local shoot is fibre only - always has been.

As I understand it you cannot get steel with fibre in 2 1/2" cases at present ..... and a very limited choice in 2 1/2" plastic.

I haven't used plastic wads for a great many years (for either game or clays), but the (rare) occasions I have had to use non toxic, I have had to use plastic and in a more modern 2 3/4" chambered gun.

[Old farrier]

33 minutes ago, Scully said:

I suppose it depends on how much your mate down the pub is going to charge you for a needless service. 
What service can Purdey offer other than to ultimately advise you to submit your gun for steel shot proofing?
They can tell you that your gun will be fine with standard steel, but we know that already. They can tell you that you can shove standard steel through any choke, but that’s common knowledge also. 
What they won’t do is tell you that you can put HP steel through your nitro proofed gun ( even though you can ) without first having it proofed for thus ( and paying for it ) and thereby proving that you didn’t need to! 🙂

Like I said, nice little earner. 

Or they could tell you not to shove standard steel through your choke after measuring the bore and choke or that it’s already out of proof off the face 

how many times have people taken guns to trade in and the gunsmith has found major problems with them 

the service provided in my opinion shows the gun trade is aware of the confusion and uncertainty of many owners and being proactive in providing it 

[Scully]

7 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Or they could tell you not to shove standard steel through your choke after measuring the bore and choke or that it’s already out of proof off the face 

Neither being off the face or out of proof is specific to steel shot suitability in your nitro proved gun; wouldn't it equally apply to nitro proved guns? You can shoot standard steel through any choke. For traditional lightweight game guns the advice ( out there in the public domain for all to see ) is to go no tighter than half.

Would it cost £130. 00 + VAT for the information that your gun is off its face or out of proof? 

how many times have people taken guns to trade in and the gunsmith has found major problems with them 

Speaking for myself, and all those I've ever gone shooting with, none. 

the service provided in my opinion shows the gun trade is aware of the confusion and uncertainty of many owners and being proactive in providing it 

Fair enough, although in my opinion, I'm pretty sure there are also many in the gun trade who are very aware of the confusion and very willing to capitalise on it. 

 

[Old farrier]

18 minutes ago, Scully said:

 

So now you’re saying no more than half choke not any choke please make your mind up 🤔

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

So now you’re saying no more than half choke not any choke please make your mind up 🤔

It’s not me who is saying it, it’s common knowledge and out there for all to read if you care to look. 
Standard steel can be used in ANY choke, although for ‘traditional light weight game guns ‘ ( I’m assuming this means 2 and a 1/2 inch chambered sxs’s ) no tighter than half is advised, although it doesn’t state why. Perhaps it would be a tad punchy? 
The OP’s Damascus barrelled gun having next to no choke, and being nitro proofed, would therefore be fine ( all things being equal as to its soundness compared to any other nitro proofed gun ) with steel shot. 
As an afterthought, as steel shot patterns tighter than lead, and current advice to obtain a like for like killing capability as that of lead, is to go up two shot sizes, then wouldn’t that possibly mean that shooting steel 3’s through a half choke in a traditional game gun, would give similar results to lead, through a full choke through the same gun? Isn’t that logical? 🙂

[Whitebridges]

Blimey, steel is the shot of Satan. It'll ruin a decent gun.

I have a lovely old 16 bore SxS made by Clough of Kings Lynn which is about 100 years old.

And a Wilkinson SxS made in 1911 . Remember Wilkinson Sword the razor blade people? 

What am I supposed to do with these lovely things ? Cut 'em up and stick 'em in the melting pot?

      

[enfieldspares]

I have a Boss...and if and when it comes I'll use bismuth through it as I will in my late father's Henry Clarke BLE and my two French Model 28E Robust in 12 and 16 bore - all are 2 1/2" or the Frenchies 65mm. And save them for driven shoots or walked up days. If I am obliged to shoot steel through cost on "vermin" days or where the shoot host mandates it I'll use the Spanish BLE with 70mm chambers, pictured below, I've just bought at auction for £50. And heck I sold the handguard that came with it this week on eBay for £8.95! So it's simple. Use bismuth or buy a cheap but good Spanish boxlock ejector as presently at that price they will next almost soon be being given away free with every purchase of four quarters of tea.

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by enfieldspares

[Scully]

27 minutes ago, Whitebridges said:

Blimey, steel is the shot of Satan. It'll ruin a decent gun.

I have a lovely old 16 bore SxS made by Clough of Kings Lynn which is about 100 years old.

And a Wilkinson SxS made in 1911 . Remember Wilkinson Sword the razor blade people? 

What am I supposed to do with these lovely things ? Cut 'em up and stick 'em in the melting pot?

      

I’ll give you 50 quid for the pair if you like. 🙂 Nobody wants old non steel proofed guns anymore anyhow. 

Seriously though, I’m pretty sure, given time, suitable steel loads will be available for all bores; whether they’ll be affordable is another matter. 
Personally I’d just stockpile relevant ammo and keep using them for as long as possible. 
If and when the time comes, I’d have the chokes opened out if necessary and carry on. 
 

[Nuke]

6 hours ago, Scully said:

It’s not me who is saying it, it’s common knowledge and out there for all to read if you care to look. 
Standard steel can be used in ANY choke, although for ‘traditional light weight game guns ‘ ( I’m assuming this means 2 and a 1/2 inch chambered sxs’s ) no tighter than half is advised, although it doesn’t state why. Perhaps it would be a tad punchy? 
The OP’s Damascus barrelled gun having next to no choke, and being nitro proofed, would therefore be fine ( all things being equal as to its soundness compared to any other nitro proofed gun ) with steel shot. 

I would also take a look at the force cones and make sure they are suitable for steel loads. Old guns may be a bit narrow.

/Markus 

[Whitebridges]

16 hours ago, Scully said:

I’ll give you 50 quid for the pair if you like. 🙂 Nobody wants old non steel proofed guns anymore anyhow. 

Seriously though, I’m pretty sure, given time, suitable steel loads will be available for all bores; whether they’ll be affordable is another matter. 
Personally I’d just stockpile relevant ammo and keep using them for as long as possible. 
If and when the time comes, I’d have the chokes opened out if necessary and carry on. 
 

Good plan Scully, stockpile. Now the loo roll has all gone i have the room. 😀    

[Scully]

22 minutes ago, Whitebridges said:

Good plan Scully, stockpile. Now the loo roll has all gone i have the room. 😀    

😂 Way to go! That’s what I’m doing....I ain’t the only one, I can tell you. 👍

[Saltings]

On 15/05/2021 at 08:22, Scully said:

Have you read the OP? There is next to no choke in the barrels and they are nitro proofed. 
Therefore it is perfectly capable of handling steel shot.

I’m not too sure to which ‘extra thick’ wads you refer, nor what a snow blocked barrel has to do with steel shot? Block ANY barrel ( Baikel or otherwise ) and fire a shot through it and the results won’t be favourable. 
Only using the gun for the type of cartridges for which it was designed will eventually render the gun obsolete; it’s continued use probably being the reason it was proved for nitro when it was originally proved for BP. 
 

ok baikal xtra thick barrel alpimax   left hand destroyed        ( if i have to explain  im ****ed )     why  put  through a much thinner lightweight barrel  forge welded with inclusions (flaws in the welds ) you have 28 / 30 " for it all to go  wrong     shoot what intendded and buy a cheap *** for steel usage 

[Scully]

4 hours ago, Saltings said:

ok baikal xtra thick barrel alpimax   left hand destroyed        ( if i have to explain  im ****** )     why  put  through a much thinner lightweight barrel  forge welded with inclusions (flaws in the welds ) you have 28 / 30 " for it all to go  wrong     shoot what intendded and buy a cheap *** for steel usage 

Like I said, the OP will be unable to lawfully use the gun for the ammunition it has been proved for because lead will eventually be banned, rendering the gun obsolete unless he uses a none lead alternative. 
I suppose he could use bismuth if he doesn’t do a lot of shooting, so can afford it, otherwise steel is the only alternative.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Scully

[cardigun]

I have used the Eley steel loaded cartridges, which have the Eley "Eco Wad" ( some sort of water soluble plastic}, and they work fine.  They cost much the same as a quality game cartridge, and kill just as well out to 40 yards on pigeon. There was a video showing a wad dropped into a jar of water at the start of a day's pigeon shooting, and it had turned into gloop and couldn't be picked out of the jar at the end of the day. The wad looked like a Plaswad, and kept the shot away from the walls of the barrels. 

[Scully]

2 hours ago, cardigun said:

I have used the Eley steel loaded cartridges, which have the Eley "Eco Wad" ( some sort of water soluble plastic}, and they work fine.  They cost much the same as a quality game cartridge, and kill just as well out to 40 yards on pigeon. There was a video showing a wad dropped into a jar of water at the start of a day's pigeon shooting, and it had turned into gloop and couldn't be picked out of the jar at the end of the day. The wad looked like a Plaswad, and kept the shot away from the walls of the barrels. 

👍Sounds very much like the Geoff Garrod video I watched.