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My first gun dog


billy86
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30 minutes ago, marsh man said:

A good tip mentioned by one of the above members was train it for what you are using for , all my dogs had spent most of their lives wild fowling , pigeon shooting and rough shooting , the basic training at an early age was sit and stay , as time wear on you can use a whistle when you raise your arm for the dog to sit , when you are happy with the sitting and staying progress like when you walk off a short distance, or walking around a large circle and although the dog follow you with his eyes the body stay where you told him to sit .

I start dummy work around the six month old period and when I was working for a living I used to take my pup up the playing field in the dark , I would start off with telling the dog to sit , chuck a dummy , walk him to heel for 40 / 50 yards , tell him to sit again and then send him back in the darkness for the dummy , I found by doing this type of training the dog think for its self without relying on the owner for directions , we have held a few gun dog trials on the estate and you would be surprised how many dogs relied on it's owner for instructions , even when the dead bird is in view the dog still needed help for directions , with wildfowling at night the dog need to think for its self as he won't get much help from his master if he can't see him , this is one of the reasons I trained my young dogs in the dark .

We all have our own ways of training a gun dog and if I am honest none of them would have been nowhere near field trial standard , but everyone I have had turned out excellent retrievers and good honest working dogs .

GOOD LUCK with your first gun dog .

Thanks mate I hope I do him justice he’s been great since we have got him very chilled out not much whining etc 

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On 26/05/2021 at 21:12, marsh man said:

A good tip mentioned by one of the above members was train it for what you are using for , all my dogs had spent most of their lives wild fowling , pigeon shooting and rough shooting , the basic training at an early age was sit and stay , as time wear on you can use a whistle when you raise your arm for the dog to sit , when you are happy with the sitting and staying progress like when you walk off a short distance, or walking around a large circle and although the dog follow you with his eyes the body stay where you told him to sit .

I start dummy work around the six month old period and when I was working for a living I used to take my pup up the playing field in the dark , I would start off with telling the dog to sit , chuck a dummy , walk him to heel for 40 / 50 yards , tell him to sit again and then send him back in the darkness for the dummy , I found by doing this type of training the dog think for its self without relying on the owner for directions , we have held a few gun dog trials on the estate and you would be surprised how many dogs relied on it's owner for instructions , even when the dead bird is in view the dog still needed help for directions , with wildfowling at night the dog need to think for its self as he won't get much help from his master if he can't see him , this is one of the reasons I trained my young dogs in the dark .

We all have our own ways of training a gun dog and if I am honest none of them would have been nowhere near field trial standard , but everyone I have had turned out excellent retrievers and good honest working dogs .

GOOD LUCK with your first gun dog .

We are working the opposite to you on fetching birds etc, (Pheasants etc) we send to what we want them to pick up, so direct from standing by hand signal in the direction. This is not every time mind, only if we need to send on a runner for example and we know its gone in cover. We want them to pick the runner rather than pick dead sitters in the field. They will search in cover if umpteen birds are down in an area if we give the command. 

This Sunday we have a day doing long range control, thats going to be a tester for us, our Buster is now starting to realise that if he listens to me he gets reward, well sometimes :lol: when he stops, sits and looks at you from 150 +yards away waiting for some guidance its touching, the team building is getting there. Love it :yahoo:

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On 26/05/2021 at 21:12, marsh man said:

I found by doing this type of training the dog think for its self without relying on the owner for directions , we have held a few gun dog trials on the estate and you would be surprised how many dogs relied on it's owner for instructions , even when the dead bird is in view the dog still needed help for directions , with wildfowling at night the dog need to think for its self as he won't get much help from his master if he can't see him , this is one of the reasons I trained my young dogs in the dark .

We all have our own ways of training a gun dog and if I am honest none of them would have been nowhere near field trial standard , but everyone I have had turned out excellent retrievers and good honest working dogs .

 

 

I believe a dog that stops and looks for direction (without being asked / without the stop whistle being blown) should / would get knocked in a field trial. It is not the desired quality. The dog should get out quickly (after all the bird could be diappearing into the distance), look for the drop zone and follow the line if required with as little handling and instruction as possible, none at all, will result in the dog getting the best score/result. 

The dog should stop and take direction only when asked. The ability to stop a dog, handle him off one retrive and onto another is a very good skill. 

 

Just because some dogs get / require a lot of handling in trials doesn't mean that is the aim. Lots of dogs run in or commit other faults at trials but we all know that is not desired. 

The best possible score for a retrieve is one where the dog is sent, has 0 stops, 0 handling and just cracks on, finds the bird quickly and efficiently and delivers quickly and efficiently back to hand. 

 

Now to me, a dog that can be stopped, pushed back, left or right, and handled on a six pence, is a dog that has a lot better training than a dog who runs out, finds a bird and comes straight back with zero handling, but the dog with zero handling will score higher, and therefore has a better chance of winning the trial. The real deal will be the dog that cracks on with no handling, but can be stopped and handled when needed. 

 

 

Here are the J regs for the retrievers: As we can see, quick and natural ability are rewarded, whilst overhandling or inappropriate handling is penalised. 

 

4. Credit Points

Natural gamefinding ability. Control. Drive and style. Quiet handling. Good retrieving and delivery. Nose. Quickness in gathering game. Marking ability.

5. Eliminating Faults

Hard mouth. Whining or barking. Running in. Out of control. Failing to enter water. Refusal to retrieve. Changing game whilst retrieving. Chasing. Without merit

6. Major Faults

Unsteadiness at heel. Being eye wiped. Disturbing ground. Poor control. Slack and un-businesslike work. Failing to find dead or wounded game. Noisy or inappropriate handling. Sloppy retrieving and delivery.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

I believe a dog that stops and looks for direction (without being asked / without the stop whistle being blown) should / would get knocked in a field trial. It is not the desired quality. The dog should get out quickly (after all the bird could be diappearing into the distance), look for the drop zone and follow the line if required with as little handling and instruction as possible, none at all, will result in the dog getting the best score/result. 

The dog should stop and take direction only when asked. The ability to stop a dog, handle him off one retrive and onto another is a very good skill. 

The real deal will be the dog that cracks on with no handling, but can be stopped and handled when needed. 

This to me is what we should aspire to. I have no interest in trials although I once did.

when picking up I largely expect my dogs to use their initiative when cast out. If I have to stop them and direct them that is exactly what I demand. They stop and go where I want them. Unfortunately I see too many people who can’t leave the whistle alone, even when a dog is on the right line. I can’t work out whether it is that they are control freaks or don’t trust the dog. How many times do you think the dog has gone off on the wrong line only to find a bird has run on or was not quite where you thought it was?

working hill country including heavy scree a partridge will often roll downhill unseen by me and my dogs have to just cover the ground. I let them use their noses and natural ability and leave the whistle alone unless I can see a bird they haven’t scented.

 

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Two very good above replies , for the bulk of gundog owners like myself who only have one or two dogs at the most try to end up with a steady dog and a decent retriever , many have to be dual purpose , family pets and working dogs at the same time , like children , every pup you start off with will be different from your last one even though they are the same breed and like the advert you see on the back of some motors , a dog is for life not just for Christmas .

I used to go to the C L A Game Fair every year with my brother for two days , leave ours on the Friday tea time , get to the fair late that night and camp on the ground , the next day we would try and visit most of the stands and have a bit more relaxing day on the Sunday watching the top clay shooters and the top dog handlers , these would be representing their country and were at the top of their game , at one event I remember watching some long distance handling in water and then directing the dog to where the retrieve was , truly amazing and for most us this was a standard that was way beyond our wildest dreams .  

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2 hours ago, Dave at kelton said:

This to me is what we should aspire to. I have no interest in trials although I once did.

when picking up I largely expect my dogs to use their initiative when cast out. If I have to stop them and direct them that is exactly what I demand. They stop and go where I want them. Unfortunately I see too many people who can’t leave the whistle alone, even when a dog is on the right line. I can’t work out whether it is that they are control freaks or don’t trust the dog. How many times do you think the dog has gone off on the wrong line only to find a bird has run on or was not quite where you thought it was?

working hill country including heavy scree a partridge will often roll downhill unseen by me and my dogs have to just cover the ground. I let them use their noses and natural ability and leave the whistle alone unless I can see a bird they haven’t scented.

 

That was me in the beginning, i got some ear ache from the trainer.

"The dog has a far better chance of finding the dummy than you ever will"  let him find it !!!

I considered myself told off. 

Its a learning curve for both dog and trainer, no 2 dogs are the same just like us. 

Mrs D was interested in FT at 1st but having been to a couple to watch we decided it wasnt for us. 

 

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There’s some very good advice here from some very experienced people 

main thing is to enjoy your dog and what it’s capable of 

ive had many dogs and taken what I learned from each to the next there all different 

I tend to lean towards marsh man here I need a dog to find a bird that is in a area where I can’t see

Be it a pheasant in a plot of artichoke or maze (I can’t see him) 

duck in the dark on a marsh 

partridge that’s out there somewhere on the downs /moor 

so my dog needs to be a keen hunter and have a bit of a brain many a time the dogs seen /heard ducks long before me along with knowing a bird has been hit and gone on

it took me a long time to learn to trust my dog and realise his job was working and fetching mine was to take him shooting and retrieving  

 

this doesn't mean I don’t require them to pay attention and be instant on the whistle I feel it helps for them to trust me as I rarely use the whistle but when I do it’s important they do it especially the stop whistle 

there are many views on training And we’re all going to have some different views on this as we all want different things from our dogs 

question now 

how many of you can say you have seen the look from your dog when he’s brought you back a bird telling you there’s another one out there? Even though you think you have them all 

 

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35 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

There’s some very good advice here from some very experienced people 

main thing is to enjoy your dog and what it’s capable of 

ive had many dogs and taken what I learned from each to the next there all different 

I tend to lean towards marsh man here I need a dog to find a bird that is in a area where I can’t see

Be it a pheasant in a plot of artichoke or maze (I can’t see him) 

duck in the dark on a marsh 

partridge that’s out there somewhere on the downs /moor 

so my dog needs to be a keen hunter and have a bit of a brain many a time the dogs seen /heard ducks long before me along with knowing a bird has been hit and gone on

it took me a long time to learn to trust my dog and realise his job was working and fetching mine was to take him shooting and retrieving  

 

this doesn't mean I don’t require them to pay attention and be instant on the whistle I feel it helps for them to trust me as I rarely use the whistle but when I do it’s important they do it especially the stop whistle 

there are many views on training And we’re all going to have some different views on this as we all want different things from our dogs 

question now 

how many of you can say you have seen the look from your dog when he’s brought you back a bird telling you there’s another one out there? Even though you think you have them all 

 

We do see some picker ups who have got some very good dogs that pick up on a shoot day but don't shoot themselves , their dogs are trained for what they do and that is picking up on shoots .

Our dogs are very hands on and are out most days of the week , I am not saying they are good at everything , far from it , like most dogs they often think they know best , but sometimes I have to admit they do , now I am getting towards mid 70s my eyes are nowhere as good as they were a few years back , this time of the year I do a fair bit of Pigeon shooting , Throughout my shooting life I hate losing anything and pigeon shooting is no different , I often watch a pigeon that had been hit and see it drop out way across the field , when we finish I walk the dog to within 20/25 yards of where I think it is , tell him to sit and then cast him out , he use the wind to his advantage and often go out way beyond where I thought it dropped and prove me wrong by finding it way off from where I had marked it .

As we have already said , no two dogs are the same and I have found with all my Labs I have had over the last 50 odd years that each of my dogs have excelled at one form of shooting , rough , Pigeon , or wildfowling , all my dogs have liked wild fowling but only the odd one have loved wildfowling , the same with rough and Pigeon shooting , I know one of my dogs loved Pigeon shooting and was as keen as I was , my job was to shoot them and his job was to find what need finding , I would often kneel in the tram lines in the middle of a big Wheat field with laid patches in the middle , in those far off days the bags were a lot bigger that often reached three figures , when we finished my dog I had then would start in the middle where the decoys had been and run around in a circle like a catherine wheel firework , moving a foot or so extra furthur out each time he came round and found many a bird we might have over looked , something you can't learn with dummies .

 

 

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12 hours ago, Old farrier said:

how many of you can say you have seen the look from your dog when he’s brought you back a bird telling you there’s another one out there? Even though you think you have them all 

Absolutely. Bring in the bird and sit looking up saying “Go on send me out again you silly old ******”😂😂

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